PCI soundcards

[Per]

Hi all,

I think it would be great to have a thread to discuss PCI soundcards.

While I was searching for a good internal soundcard (to analog out) to get a good but lowprice start with XXHIGHEND 0.9-y4 and upsampling / arc predition I stumbled over this modded card from Itemaudio:

http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/prodigy_hd2.html

Looks interesting. I might give it a try.

Best Regards,

Per

[PeterSt]

If I may have on opinion ...

To me this looks top of the bill. Should be better than anything else really.
Reason : Those "discrete opamps" which you may not recognize at first glance, but I do.

Also notice this is ESI which are good at this anyway (Juli@).
If I had to choose between a Lynx and this, I'd always take this (at less than half the price).

Peter

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Those "discrete opamps"

I remember having these in my hands, last time at your place, Peter

Nice card anyway, this is a nice solution for a bargain, just add an word-clock and some red BlackGate's for fun, some WBT-nextgen silver connectors some pure silver-wire.
Give it its own power supply (shunts), some nice interlinks..........
And you are there !
haha

Great

[Fidelio]

To me this looks top of the bill. Should be better than anything else really.

I have tried the Audiotrak vs my Onkyo, and the Onkyo eats it for breakfast.

I have been contemplating upgrading to the SE-200 Ltd, looks absolutely spiffing, uses better quality parts and a better DAC than my SE-90 (Wolfson 8716 vs 8740). Opamps are the same on both cards. If it sounds better than the 90, I may have found my dream source.

The coolest thing about these are the analogue volume control (and proper mute circuits) and its absolute quietness. I have run the card directly into power amps (totally doable due to what turns out to be analogue volume attenuation), and it is dead quiet, adds no noise over the amplifiers' noise floor.

[Per]

Thanks a lot guys, Great comments.
 
That was exactly the kind of discussion / content I had in mind when starting this thread 

Keep it flowing 

By the way. The Burson modded Audio Prodigy HD2 se is priced at $322 or 217 EU plus VAT. What are we talking about for the Onkyo SE-200 ltd?

Per

[mojave]

Because I want a multichannel solution, I plan to get the Asus Essence ST with the H6 DAC expansion board. All the opamps are swappable and I already have a 1ppm TCXO to install when I get the card. This card has its own Molex power connector for the audio output section.

Here is the card modded with Burson Opamps:

[mojave]

Fidelio, you mention in another thread that you have a very quiet PC power supply. What power supply are you using?

[Per]

... I plan to get the Asus Essence ST with the H6 DAC expansion board.

Thanks Mojave. Looks very interesting, too. But as far as I have read, the Asus Essence ST does NOT do 88.2 and 176.2 khz sample rates - whereas the Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 should do anything between some 33 and 192 khz. Isn't that important in order to not hamper Peters great intentions with upsampling and arc prediction in version 0.9y-4?

Per

[Fidelio]

Fidelio, you mention in another thread that you have a very quiet PC power supply. What power supply are you using?

A Seasonic, cannot remember the model name, I will have to open the PC case. Will check next time I open it.

The SE-200 Ltd. is about 30k Yen, soooo about 225 EUR.

[mojave]

Thanks Mojave. Looks very interesting, too. But as far as I have read, the Asus Essence ST does NOT do 88.2 and 176.2 khz sample rates - whereas the Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 should do anything between some 33 and 192 khz. Isn't that important in order to not hamper Peters great intentions with upsampling and arc prediction in version 0.9y-4?

Per

I did not realize that until you mentioned it so I checked the manual and you are correct. I'm still not sure whether the card always resamples to its set sample rate if one is use WASAPI exclusive mode. Also, they are supposed to be releasing drivers that allow for automatic sample rate adjustment. In other words, it always will use the sample rate that you send it by changing its set sample rate. I'll have to wait and see if this supports 88.2 and 176.4.

I definitely feel that Peter's upsampling and arc prediction are what makes the new version sound so great and I want to be able to use it. If I used 4x upsampling with 44.1 material, the card would accept the 176.4 and then resample to 196 kHz. This might still sound better than listening at 44.1. It also might not be a noticeable difference from listening to 176.4. The 4x Arc Prediction upsampling might have improved things to such a degree that the final resampling from 176.4 to 196 kHz won't impact the sound quality.

[earflappin]

Peter, on a scale of good/better/best how do the PCI card to DAC interfaces rate in your book?  What is the closest to zero jitter - i2S?  With my Berkeley Alpha DAC found that AES/EBU was better than coax or toslink, but I realize that could vary depending how the DAC is designed.  I guess I'm asking the question - what is the BEST interface from a sound quality standpoint.  It is is i2s what PCI cards support this if at all?  I have the sense that you have modded a PCI card to create your own custom i2S interface?

[PeterSt]

David,

It doesn't work like that. Or not that simple ...

As I have it myself at the moment : PCI -> i2s. Not "zero" jitter (which doesn't exist anyway), because it can't work like that. This is because the PC will be clocking, while at the other end (read : at a too long distance) the DAC is clocking in.

AES/EBU is theoretically better for a long(er) distance, but implies also a very different means of clocking (data embedded, while i2s ix explicit).

So yes, I have modded a PCI card to output i2s, but in the end it is not the way to go. Why ? because there are better options.
The better options come down to like how it was in the CDPlayer, the clock right next to the DAC. Now, with the external DAC that requires totally different solutions, like asynch connections (the DAC clocking, the PC just pumping computer data).

Next, in the DAC box it comes down to the lowest jitter connection possible, and indeed at that time this would be i2s.

But in the above I implied some hurdles which are not so easy to overcome, but, which can. You will see ...

All 'n all it is a large matrix with the pros and cons, while one crossing exists that suits all.

[Fidelio]

Should we keep this thread about PCI sound cards and their analogue outs?

Ok so which ones do we have that are interesting for us:

Onkyo Wavio SE-90 PCI:

Chipset: VIA Envy24MT
DAC: Wolfson WM8716
Singal-Noise Ratio 110dB (Line Out)
Frequency Response 0.3Hz - 44kHz (line Out +0/-0.5dB)
Digital OUT Sampling Frequency 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz
Connection Line Out x1 (RCA / Stereo) Digital Out x1 (Toslink)


Onkyo Wavio SE-200 and SE-200 Ltd:

Chipset: VIA Envy24HT
DAC: Wolfson WM8740
Singal-Noise Ratio: 115dB (2Ch Analog Out)
Frequency Response: 0.3Hz - 88kHz (2Ch Analog Out Out +0/-3dB)
Digital IN Sampling Frequency: 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96kHz
Digital OUT sampling frequency: 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz
Input terminal: Analog IN X 2 (stereo RCA, internal connection)
Digital IN X 1 (Toslink)
MIC X 1 (φ 3.5mm monaural)
Output terminal: 2ch Analog OUT X 1 (stereo RCA)
Digital OUT X 1 (Toslink)
7.1ch Analog OUT X 1

Audiotrak Prodigy HD2:

PCI audio interface based on VIA VT1721 (Envy24HT-S)
PCI card supplied with standard and low profile metal bracket
24 bit / 192kHz playback (analog & digital)
24 bit / 96kHz recording
high quality AKM AK4396 120dB(a) S/N ratio DA converter for extremly high quality 2 channel audio playback via RCA output connectors (5Hz - 40kHz frequency response)
triple OpAmp design for audio output with three high quality Fairchild NE5532 OpAmps on separate sockets (can be exchanged for tuning & customization)
headphone output with 1/8" connector routed via JRC4580 dual OpAmp
analog line input with 1/8" connector via AKM AK5353/7 102dB(a) S/N ratio AD converter (20Hz - 40kHz frequency response)
optical S/PDIF digital output following IEC-958C standard, can be used for stereo audio playback (PCM) and multichannel streams from such sources (AC-3 or DTS data)

Asus Xonar Essence ST:

This card will not do 88.2Khz and 176.4Khz sample rates, and does not have auto sample rate switching.

Audio Processor: ASUS AV100 High-Definition Sound Processor (Max. 192KHz/24bit)
24-bit D-A Converter of Digital Sources: Texas Instruments PCM1792A*1 (127dB SNR, Max.192kHz/24bit)
24-bit A-D Converter for Analog Inputs: Cirrus-Logic CS5381* 1 (120dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit)
High Fidelity Headphone Amplifier: Texas Instruments 6120A2*1 (120dB SNR, 100dB THD+N @ Vcc±12V
Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted): 124dB for Front-out
Analog Playback Sample Rate and Resolution: 44.1K/48K/96K/192KHz @ 16/24bit

M-Audio Audiophile 192:

Sample rates: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192 kHz from internal clock.
Analogue I/O: two inputs and two outputs, balanced/unbalanced quarter-inch jack sockets
Digital I/O: S/PDIF in and out on phono coaxial
Converters: AKM 5385A dual-bit delta-sigma 24-bit/192kHz (A-D), AKM 4358 multi-bit 24-bit/192kHz (D-A).
Dynamic range: 113dBA (A-D), 109dBA (D-A).
Frequency response: ±0.5dB, 20Hz to 80kHz at 192kHz sample rate.
THD + noise: 0.0006 percent (inputs), 0.0023 percent (outputs).

Any more that should be good?

[JohanZ]

About the Audiotrak HD2.........

......triple OpAmp design for audio output with three high quality Fairchild NE5532 OpAmps on separate sockets   

Replace them for 2xLT1364 ans 1x LT1361 great improvement.
I do have the DDDAC1543 but with the Audiotrak HD2 card I have at least a similar sound quality and it gives me more possibilities using XX.
I have used the opa627 on browndog  (the best!? and expensive) but what is lacking is the life and ejoyment factor!

See : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/audiotrak-prodigy-hd2-opamp-configurations-list-322497/

[Fidelio]

I think the NE5532 are there for a reason: low noise. The Audiotrak and the Onkyos use them very much for this reason I think.