0.9y-4 - w00t

[GerardA]

Fidelio,

I tried your experiment and also hear more livelyness without oversampling/Arc, BUT I don't like it!
To me it sounds like digital the way it has been for always, while OS/Arc gives a more relaxed/natural sound the
way good vinyl can sound. Maybe it's just a wrong taste but this way I enjoy listening for longer periods (with higher volumes).
But I'm sure it depends on the system and a lot of people will have to reconcider their systems (not their taste) because the new XX sounds really different!

[Fidelio]

Fidelio,

I tried your experiment and also hear more livelyness without oversampling/Arc, BUT I don't like it!
To me it sounds like digital the way it has been for always, while OS/Arc gives a more relaxed/natural sound the
way good vinyl can sound. Maybe it's just a wrong taste but this way I enjoy listening for longer periods (with higher volumes).
But I'm sure it depends on the system and a lot of people will have to reconcider their systems (not their taste) because the new XX sounds really different!

Thanks man

I was principally interested in whether or not others experienced big differences between AP and no AP. What one likes best is subjective and there is never "wrong" taste. Computer audio is so confusing at times that I may have preferred AP by merely changing mainboard in my PC, one never knows.

It's weird though, your description of AP is just like how I experience no AP. Goes to show that diversity in gear gives great diversity in results when it comes to PC audio.

[manisandher]

btw, great sodding speakers you have there m8 What do you use to drive them?

Ah, a bit complicated... and probably too off-topic to discuss here.

What I will say is that my DAC (it's actually an AD/DA) seems to 'like' quad upsampling with AP. This is by far the best upsampling I have ever heard. I've pretty much been dead against upsampling until now, feeling that the onboard over-sampling does a better job. But if you can switch this over-sampling off (and also any upsampling that might be going on) then quad AP definitely seems to be the way to go.

But if you can't switch these things off, I can't see how quad AP can do it's magic... which I think is what you're experiencing.

Mani.

[SeVeReD]

Hi all.  No extensive back and forth here.  I've liked double arc prediction (can't do quad) with 9y-4 so much it was hard to start doing the audiophilic back and forth dance... but I did it a little.  I used a Chesky recording The Coryells and rock, Pinback and Nada Surf (normal phase for his one).  With the very well recorded The Coryells, I could go either way and be happy plain vanilla or arc prediction... but I still preferred arc prediction quite a bit more in comparison.  For me, it just takes a big step toward sounding more live... maybe thickening up a bit too much but much better than the thinner tinnier sounding plain vanilla.  For rock it was no contest.  Double AP was slamming articulate bass, burried vocals come out better... ssssssssssibilance is much Much better ... and that's a big one.  The designer of the Stello DAC really wanted people to like his upsampling to 192... I never have, and have always selected 'bypass'... but maybe with Peter's AP and whatever Stello did to this OS DAC in the analog section to maybe make it work with his upsampling,,, maybe Peter's AP is doing well with it in bypass mode... still, I can hear now where I'm really chomping at the bit for Peter's DAC,,, if I can afford it :/ hehe.  With double AP things aren't perfect with this Stello dac.  Sometimes I can hear upper midrange vocals jump out a bit (who knows, could be other equipment, recording... ).  I also might try turning the bass down a bit,,, but, otoh, it's the best bass I've ever heard and sometimes live bass can be very ripe... keep in mind this bass is very articulate, but I might, might I say, turn it down a smidgen... dunno.  That's about all I can think to 'fault' at the moment.  I'll try going back and forth later, but tonight I just want to listen to some music and double arc prediction for me is just working well.  I surely can understand how some might like plain vanilla, it does sound good,,, remember, at this point we're all overstating things... XXHE has really taken my system to a new level that I have to learn to listen to for awhile to be able to describe better... all ways tried with 9y-4 are better than they've ever been in my system.  This is a good family to be in guys.

[Fidelio]

Now I feel like my DAC is the weirdo DAC that does the opposite of everyone else's. SeVeReD's description of vanilla is just like my description of AP. Well.

I have decided to get a new DAC, not because of XXHE, but it has been a long time coming. Please feel free to chip in the thread I have started if you have suggestions. The choice makes me

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=941

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Peter,

Can It be so that the sound is sometimes, to much center-focused instead of more wider.
too much pronounced in the center, can sometimes be overwhelming
You have the album by now, I guess, haha
track 8 is a good example, but again it can be just some tracks.

I think it has been said before, by someone.

thats all, still very happy with latest version.
Dry and tighdy basses, and the hights I can only say, WOW, this was never been there, this was missing from cd-player day 1.

HOUSTON WE HAVE REACHED MUSICALITY

[PeterSt]

Roy,

Before I am going to listen to you example, I think I may have an explanation in advance ...

First thing is : nobodoy knows how wide the sound stage musy be, right ? That is, not with random recordings you don't know about much. On this matter, it always occurred to me that MP3 (via XXHighEnd) always had a wider sound stage. So, should that be right ? I guess not (this is just an idea, not science).

Now think of the term "coherence". It is not difficult to feel this is much better with this Arc Upsampling. If one thing, everybody would agree upon that (I think). But now let's look at the coherence between channels ...

We all know - and wil agree - that when the two channels exhibit the same information the sound will come right from the middle. Right ? right.
Now think of the smearing I talked about, either from harmonic distortion or the explicit means of it by oversampling. Now, what you may not realize much, is that this goes on a per channel base. Thus, the left channel is dealt with independently of the right channel. Now try to see the implication of this ...

If there is any instrument more in one of each channels, this will influence this "right from the middle" sound, because that sound being there equally in left and right is influenced differently. Thus, that sound is actually "drawn" to the channel with that instrument more pronounced in that channel (the lower frequencies "draw" (at least for oversampling and the filtering in there, it will). So, that sound, originally being there equally in left and right is now more pronounced in one of the channels. This makes it "wider".

This is just my thinking, but it is connected to MP3 being wider. There too happens similar I'd say, because the higher frequencies are removed, and that too won't go equally per channel just because the higher frequency data is not equal.

From all this should follow that smearing in general, smears over left/right, that widening the sound stage. Is that good ? well, you could say that you like it, but if it originally wasn't so, it is just wrong.
In the end it should be about the size of instruments and voices. They should represent themselves for size. This may be very hard to recognize, because your room seems to influence it. I don't think this is so, and when it seems to be so afterall, you are fooled by something else being wrong. The room does influence of course, but just imagine your wife singing there somewhere in between the speakers. No way you will ever think her mouth is too big. Well, not for this subject. This is because your room just belongs there, and your brain will interpret it correctly. But when it's coming wrongly from the speakers, you brain can't cope, and if anything the picture becomes too wide.


Completely besides the above, I like to add a small anectotical story;

I know many of you in here know Bert Doppenberg and his speakers (www.bd-design.nl). When I met Bert at first I got intrigued by his "capabilites" of letting any way bass sound to spring from a point in mid air. This was with his "before Orphean" horn designs, which quite some of you use, I know. This is timing, time alignment, in-phase stuff. This is where I started to to dive into the technical merits of sound. I just wanted to know how it was done, never mind I thought it was wrong. I even wanted to have it in my own room.
So, this is an example of things really being able to be too narrow just the same, but it is rare.
But was it really too narrow, or will you be able to "see" that pin pointed live bass just the same when it would be playing in the middle in between your speakers ? I think you will, but you are just not used to it, for so many years perceiving everything differently.

For now, I will leave it up to you whether a smaller sound stage is right or wrong. But my theories say it is correct, or otherwise I first have to know how it should be in reality. Mind you, this has been an intrigueing thing by itself for me for a longer time now. What is real in this ?

Peter

[AUDIODIDAKT]

for so many years perceiving everything differently.

Thnx for your explaination.
This is the case for me indeed, and for many people more.
From now on it will be completely NEW.
How to compare, with what, with reality, I guess.

Still trying a way to find why ARC should be wrong, but I can´t.
I´am not even sure about my DAC specs, but its just plain good
It is straight to the point, its me that should ajust, thats for sure.
I have to set my own merits right, I guess.
And I am not the only one.

How do instruments sound, and how have we perceived them for years out of our system.
This keeps me occupied for weeks, but this is very interesting.
Maybe try some classical music, next week.
Its not my thing, really, but now is the time  to give it a try.

Maybe some advise on certain tracks we do know,

and maybe even make an audiophile Top 20 test track list.
To determine some merits.

What to look for...................

[Fidelio]

Anyone tried pushing their mono buttons (if you have one) and compare AP and vanilla?

[glynnw]

Holy shamoly, Batman! Today was a wet day where I live, so I finally learned how to install and use hotkeys and upgraded to version 0.9y-4.  Using a Wavelength Brick (16/44 NOS), I cannot take advantage of the upsampling, but just out of the box this sounds better than any previous version.  Just played a little Kip Hanrahan  I have played easily over 100 times and was floored by the detail I was hearing and the vocals are to die for.  Trained the wheel button on my mouse to do ALT +X so I can come back from unattended without the keyboard at my chair (the mouse and screen are by my chair).  Thanks Peter.

[PeterSt]

Thanks Glynn. And good you made it to the HotKeys ! But I really was lauging out loud at reading your post.

[PeterSt]

Ok, here is one for going back to vanilla from my side ...

I just played a 24/96 album. Okay, let's say nothing wrong with that;
Then I tried something AUDIODIDAKT pointed out to me to test this "narrow" thing (see a few posts back). My impression : bweh, what a tame, lame mess this is. However should I judge that !

Went out, lit a cigar, thinking how to respond. But before the cigar was even lit I knew I forgot to set the Arc Upsampling. Bwahahaha, stupid me. But this was the first time I went back to vanilla, always thinking "maybe tomorrow" because of the joy as it is.

Well, what a change ! The freshness, the clarity a distortion / feeback guitar can have.
On that track 8 I see a person actually out of reach of the microphone - stepping towards it and back - in a quite large room / hall singing in between his own guitar melodies (ah, a distortion guitar with melodies, right).

But wait a minute, track 9 ... oh, this is a goose bumps track. It reminds me of Let me Roll it from mcCartney and Wings from back then. Oh yes, I see that darkened room with pillows on the floor still in front of me.
Sh*t, 5 minutes and already done.

Anyway, this is Dave Holy (The Plumber), and while track 11 just started I'm under the impression that this is a long distance mike recording (listen to the hall at the hit of the snare). But also listen to how this makes you think this is just live, while I doubt it is. So I guess some processing is added to make it look like live ? (or everything sounds live with this upsampling, which is a very general impression I have), but it doesn't sound 100% natural to me.

All together, I receive anything but things being narrow, but this is because of the hall in general. Listen to track 12, there it gets crazy.
Btw, that drummer must be standing behind a number of floor toms. But hitting them with some angled (bended plastic) sticks (so the surface hitting is larger).

Veery nice album.

[SeVeReD]

Holy shamoly, Batman! Today was a wet day where I live, so I finally learned how to install and use hotkeys and upgraded to version 0.9y-4.  Using a Wavelength Brick (16/44 NOS), I cannot take advantage of the upsampling, but just out of the box this sounds better than any previous version.  Just played a little Kip Hanrahan  I have played easily over 100 times and was floored by the detail I was hearing and the vocals are to die for.  Trained the wheel button on my mouse to do ALT +X so I can come back from unattended without the keyboard at my chair (the mouse and screen are by my chair).  Thanks Peter.

Yea for you; hot keys isn't too hard eh?  Sure is worth figuring out for the SQ unattended brings.  Are you going to have Gordon upgrade the Brick to 24/96?  Since it is NOS it would be interesting to hear how it does with double arc prediction.

[glynnw]

I didn't even know the Brick could be upgraded to 24/96.  Since all my files are 16/44 this has not been important for me, but the new XXHE features may make it so.  As a confirmed Bottlehead, I am also waiting for their DAC kit which should do 24/96 (at least).  Either way, today I am just elated with the sound at 16/44.  This evening I spent several hours hearing my music sounding better than ever - actually got emotional about it a few times.  Today I am more impressed with XXHE than at any time since I started with it.  This new sound is that big an improvement.

[leifchristensen]

hello P
just an update:
having a day off today and now I´m listening to live at blues alley with eva cassidy and have tried back and forth with or w/o upsampling and in my system it´s no doubt: quad and AP gives the reproduction more detailed ambience and realistic sense of space
the voice and the applause is also presented more free standing from the acoustic venue
nobody´s frying bacon here the applause have substance and body
bass is also more nuanced and easier to follow
and then I don´t really give a rats ass what works better in other systems;
like the true ego I am;i only care about myself and my system
well done
best
Leif