0.9-y3 Laidback now ?

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Peter,

Did you do some listening yourself.

PLEASE DO

All the action is gone, sorry

[Calibrator]

Another dawn ... another delightful day of testing

With a clear and fresh mind, I have just finished another session of comparisons between 0.9y-2a and 0.9y-3 and my conclusions are still the same as last night .. that 0.9y-3 lacked that little sparkle and clarity I have been enjoying of late.

Picking up on the recent post by Peter that it's the Engine that does the SQ work ( something that we perhaps tend to overlook or forget with all these changes of versions ), I created another test folder and plonked 0.9y-3 into it, then COPIED Engine#3 from 0.9y-2(a) into it, then queued up my two standard test pieces of music ... and pressed PLAY.

Well wadda ya know .... the life had returned !

I recall in the past overriding the GUI with updated versions, but can't remember playing LEGO with the engines themselves.

Not sure of the consequences of this action in the wider scheme and whether there is some tight relationship between the engine and GUI within each release, but it's opened my ears to an alternative approach to testing. Hopefully this technique doesn't open up a can of worms .. Peter has enough hair pulling at the moment keeping track of changes across versions without the further complication of us creating hybrids.

Food for thought hopefully

Cheers,

Russ

[Calibrator]

Thanks Russ, the blanket has gone!

So I guess I have to find new settings for the Q's, any more clues?

Was this a difference between X and Y or because I did some upgrades?
Because with X I likes my settings...

Hi Gerard(A),

good to read you had some success.

My Q settings were arrived at by simply playing a couple of test tracks that are very plain in composition, but contain instruments that are readily discerned. I think it helps to keep things simple initially and tweak until you think the instruments are as close to real life as possible. My two main test pieces contain triangles, cowbells, castinets and a guitar mainly, which are articles that should be remembered reasonably well.

I also think you need to give a set of parameters time to 'invade' the subconscious over a period of time. After a number of hours you should know whether it's for the better or not, and I don't think Mr Placebo has any influence here as there is no right or wrong settings , but simply those that give you the closest feeling to reality in your environment and using your own equipment.

As a general rule I've noticed, as have some others, that the lower the Q1 parameter is set, the more precise and distinct an instrument appears to become but may be perceived as too clinical for some ears. Your DAC also needs to run comfortably at these low settings and the lower the buffer size the better ( usually ).

Happy tweaking

Russ

[Calibrator]

Not sure of the consequences of this action in the wider scheme and whether there is some tight relationship between the engine and GUI within each release, but it's opened my ears to an alternative approach to testing. Hopefully this technique doesn't open up a can of worms .. Peter has enough hair pulling at the moment keeping track of changes across versions without the further complication of us creating hybrids.

It's just occurred to me that Engine#3 changes between 0.9y-2(a) and 0.9y-3 would likely incorporate some memory manipulation recoding to cure some bugs we've noticed.

Peter, I assume you keep notation within your source code to keep track of alterations, are you able to cast light on what you might have changed to cause the effect we ( I ) am hearing between engines? I'm convinced I'm not imagining things now that i've been playing my 'hybrid' for a couple of hours now.

Ta,

Russ

[SeVeReD]

Well I think it's pretty surprising that Russ and I tend to agree on settings and also on what we're hearing with these version, (and actually other versions too; must have similar tastes/systems?).  Since this morning, after reading Peter's post, I've been running both y-3 and a hybrid of y-3/engine y-2a ... my ears/system prefer the hybrid.  I've kept Q settings the same for both versions... so maybe need to start optimizing y-3 changing Qs/changing phase to see if that's what's needed.

When throwing in y-2a engine into y-3 though I lose the setting that allows me to increase/decrease memory to speed up libraries... I thought just changing the engine would only affect the sound, not the player layout.  In y-3 I have that setting at 700 ... could increasing the memory usage to speed up library upset the SQ? ... that wouldn't be worth it.
dave

[AUDIODIDAKT]

I went completly back to previous version,
not the hybrid.

Think maybe, the cache is screwing up SQ.

This is BOLD to say, and I'am not sure

Its late now here and can't play loud music, so???

[PeterSt]

So ... It is as late here, and of course I tried to trick you with a hint of not to. But it didn't help and didn't work.

Something is at play here which is not consistent to my thus far thinking. At this moment I only can say this test was not without a reason, and I want to thank those who tried it; I know or feel what this is about, but now I must think ...

[SeVeReD]

You never ever satisfied guys might try to use XXHighEnd.exe from 0.9y-2a on the 0.9y-3 version of XXEngine3. So :

Stuff the latest XXEngine3.exe (from 0.9y-3) over your old 0.9y-2a folder, use Unattended and let me know what happens.

We all know it really is XXEngine3 producing the sound. Right ?
Now, let's see ...

Wait, I did the reverse of this.  I stuffed y2a engine [Edit not engine i used xxhighend.exe ... whatanidiot]into the y-3 version... hmmm.  I'll try stuffing y-3 engine into y-2a folder tonight doh.

[SeVeReD]

I created another test folder and plonked 0.9y-3 into it, then COPIED Engine#3 from 0.9y-2(a) into it, then queued up my two standard test pieces of music ... and pressed PLAY.

Well wadda ya know .... the life had returned !


Cheers,

Russ

Hmm looks like Russ did the same thing as me.  Russ... we did the 'opposite' of what peter asked.  Try plopping y-3 .exe into a y-2a folder next.

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Yep, you are right.

Stupido,

I already went back to 0.9y-2, so now copied 0.9y-3  Engine#3 into it. also.

[Calibrator]

I created another test folder and plonked 0.9y-3 into it, then COPIED Engine#3 from 0.9y-2(a) into it, then queued up my two standard test pieces of music ... and pressed PLAY.

Well wadda ya know .... the life had returned !


Cheers,

Russ

Hmm looks like Russ did the same thing as me.  Russ... we did the 'opposite' of what peter asked.  Try plopping y-3 .exe into a y-2a folder next.

The contents of zips for 0.9y-2 ( with 2a exe added shortly after ) and 0.9y-3 appear to be identical apart from the actual GUI ( XXHighEnd.exe ) and the engine#3, so it should not matter which way the files are flipped .. you will end up with the same result. I double checked that before I created the hybrid.

The more I listen to the earlier engine, the more I enjoy it and would be happy to call it a day at that. It really is fabulous here. Of course it still has the glitches of not starting always and occassionally stopping mid stream, but when it gets going ... damn .. it's just great

I'm experimenting with some changes to my scheme's and priorities to see if I can get it a little more reliable is starting and continued running.

Cheers,

Russ

[Calibrator]

OK ... further thoughts here ... I was trying to get the best of both worlds ... updated interface combined with what I believe to be the best engine so far, which is in fact different to what Peter suggested, which was going back to the 'broken' interface ( B.B. King issues etc ), and using the latest engine.

I'll try that shortly. Sorry for confusion!

Cheers,

Russ

[SeVeReD]

EDITIT**idiot alert... been doing it all wrong here**I wouldn't bother reading through this and trying to make sense of it
"oh what a convoluted web we weave"
edit first off, with 9y2a with y-3 engine when I double click on an album in library/gallery I get an error saying 'object is in use elsewhere....'
but then, after clicking ok, it loads in playlist and I can play it. (edit ... well this looks to have 'worked' itself out... MAGIC)

I've been going back and forth between only these two frankensteins... I should have brought back in just regular y-3,,, but I haven't and now I'm wondering if it really sounds like 9y2a with y-3 engine... I'm betting it doesn't because now I'm kinda ok with 9y2a with y-3 engine.  I think I need more time listening.  It hasn't been easy tonight because of the heat & humidity which in Southern California we're not used to and that atmosphere changes the system sound anyway.
Anyway
y-3 with 9y2a engine:  I'm still leaning toward this a bit more.  Bass seems more plucky and better defined.  Highs more open and forward, better decay.  Images more focussed.  Better sense of the right phase for the settings I'm using, (I have not changed setting from what is in my sig).  more dynamic

9y2a with y-3 engine:  This sounds good too.  Without comparison I might not be obsessing.  Sometimes I think vocals are better and fuller, natural... instruments not as focused but blending together into a whole that isn't unnatural.  cymbal highs a bit subdued... not as 'even' sounding as other version... but could be phase stuff I should try to optimize. or could be I need more time listening and tired now.

I'll leave this here and come back and edit later, so look for that.

[Calibrator]

Well the footy coverage on TV has finished for the afternoon so it's back to testing

As Peter suggested, I replicated my 0.9y-2(a) folder and replaced the Engine#3 from the one out of 0.9y-3, and did some more A/Bing.

My conclusion .... it's the engine itself which is making the discernable difference in SQ. The GUI is simply a means to an end, and if it is having any influence, then it is minor at best and I can't pick any differences between them.

So for now, I will continue with my initial hybrid which consisted of the bug reduced GUI from 0.9y-3 combined with the Engine#3 from 0.9y-2(a).

Not sure where to progress from here. It's probably got Peter scratching his head though .. LOL

Cheers all,

Russ

[PeterSt]

Thank you all for trying, and please note that I am unaware of any changes, *except* for those who made it "worst" in the first place. "Worst", however, was just better to some, and this by itself is hard to judge for the real merits. Remember, this was caused by wrong memory useage, BUT, this by itself was -so to say- controlled by XXHighEnd.exe.

Sorry about the confusement on what to put where, which was caused by my way of implying what was going on, followed by what to put where, which seemed the other way around. It made you judge better, hopefully.

What it comes down to, is that with your using XXEngine3 with the old XXHighEnd, you prooved that ... it indeed is XXHighEnd doing it. And not the other way around as what seemed logical to you. Why ? well, because XXEngine3 just doesn't contain any changes !

But there is a small chance it is XXEngine3 doing it afterall, which is related to a change I overlooked at first. Thus, there *is* a change, and it really could do it; I increased the size of an array which seemed better to me for "these days", and although I would not say that this should influence sound, it can in theory.

I just removed that change (which is a change applied to 0.9y-2), so for that matter it is back to 0.9y-1d. It is in the below 09.y-3a version of XXEngine3. You should paste that over your 0.9y-3 folder.
Note that you can only see which is which by the size, and this 0.9y-3a is a little larger.

Btw, do not forget to set your Split File back to how it was before the versions producing Out of Memory errors !

For those who think the Thumbnail Cache make a difference, set that to 0.

Pray ...