Writing .wav files to HDD using a Blu-Ray writer - they sound better to me

[Jeffc]

Hi Folks,

First post here but I may have something of interest. I recently purchased an LG BD-RE GGW-H20L Blu-ray writer. The reason being that CD-Rs burned using the BR writer have much smoother pits (from scanning electron micrograph images) and sound far superior to stamped CDs or to CD-Rs burned using a CD/DVD writer. Here the reasons for the better SQ are explainable.

Now for the twilight zone. With my headphone system, CD .wav files written to HDD using EAC from the Blu-Ray writer sound different, and to my ears dare I say better, than the same .wav files written to HDD with a CD/DVD writer when played back using XXHE or for that matter even Foobah or XMplay. And .wav files from a Blu-Ray written CD-R ripped to HDD using the Blu-Ray writer seem to sound a little better again, weird stuff.

If anyone has a Blu-Ray writer, it would be great it you could confirm what I'm hearing. Certainly playback systems you guys shave should be well up to the task in proving this. 

And if anyone has any idea whatsoever how this could occur with exact same sized files with identical checksums, I'd love to hear.

I'm not that computer savvy and you can say that this is a figment of my imagination, but that's why it would be good for anyone with a Blu-Ray and CD/DVD writers to test this out with XXHE. I think you'll be as pleasantly surprised as I was. There is a DIYaudio thread on this, with my friend SandyK, who came across this interesting find first, who is also of the clear opinion that .wav files ripped to HDD with EAC using the LG Blu-Ray writer simply sound better.

cheers.. Jeffc

[Ava12]

If that's true....wow!
Peter, any idea why,? any speculation?
Ava

[PeterSt]

G'day Jeffc, and ... to the voodoo club !
Although I see that you're around for a long time already. Long enough to have seen this come by : Burning audio CD while XX playing.

But you are (a.o.) saying that just ripping a normal CD from your BR drive improves, correct ?

One of the big secrets is (though not for much longer I estimate) that I'm currently working on ripping software with extensive "uncommon" analysis with the objective of, well, getting the job done better. It will be the subject of the 0.9y sequence. Although the analysis features won't show much of what you're observing, the ripping itself should be able to improve on jitter anomalies, that being the only thinkable reason for the differences we may perceive on these matters.

The only BR device I own myself is in a PS3, and I'm not sure I can use it for ripping (over Ethernet). But throughout the process I will try, and otherwise I will buy one.

Great stuff Jeffc !
Peter

PS: Ava, see the link I referred to. Part of the answer is in there I think.

[Jeffc]

Peter,

Thank you indeed for the very warm welcome.

Yes and yes, what I'm saying is that a .wav file played from HDD written using the BR writer sounds better, and maybe better still if the .wav file is written from a BR burned CD-R.

Great if this can be investigated by anyone out there, and your insights will be most welcome to figure out the reason why.

cheers.. Jeffc

[Telstar]

Looks like that I cannot delay buying a BD-rom player

Pity I have a BD in the livingroom and 0 disks lol, long story with the tv.

[Jeffc]

Telstar,

Make sure its a BluRay writer, not just a reader, see the model number above.

Below is a post from radtech this morning at the DIYaudio thread on this

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141902&perpage=25&pagenumber=4

"After reading this thread I went out and bought an LG BluRay drive. Last night I used it to rip Debbie Gibson's 'Out of the Blue' album, the results were phenomenal, much better than with my NEC CDR-84 drive. For example on 'Shake Your Love' the soundstage really opens up, and the bass on 'Only in my Dreams' is tight without being boomy. The only downside was that after using it I found that my watch had stopped and all of my house keys were bent. Tonight I'm going to rip all of my Tiffany CDs..."

cheers.. Jeffc

PS. There is quite some angst/sarcasm on the validity of Blu-Ray rips to HDD sounding better than CD/DVD rips over at the DIYaudio forum and unfortunately I cannot vouch that the post of radtech above is genuine.  My apologies for this, but I’m not used to folk being so closed minded on something they believe can’t be true, but have not actually investigated it for themselves.

PPS. The radtech post was a prank.. the smart a*se

[Telstar]

Telstar,

Make sure its a BluRay writer, not just a reader, see the model number above.

Yes, of course. I'll try to get the same model.
BTW, I think this LG has some special cache algorithm, 2mb cache IIRC. The caching can be influencing the rip?

I wont read that thread, i have too many subscriptions already at dyiaudio and there are way too many skepticals around there.

[pedal]

Hooray!

Now I just have to climb my loft, move down 2,000 CDs in storage and spend my summer vacation ripping all my music all over again. I feel so happy now! (My wife too).

[Jeffc]

Hi Pedal,

Don't rush just yet, the jury is still out on this until more ears have substantiated that there are indeed SQ differences between .wav files ripped to HDD using a BluRay writer compared to a CD or DVD writer. Might be a greater differences still if the .wav file has been made from a CD-R written using a BluRay writer.

There are several .wav files for comparison available for download at VIPeers. If you, on anyone else for that matter, is interested in comparing them for subjective SQ, PM me and I'll send you the download URLs. The more that test files like these, or get a BluRay writer and test it directly for themselves, the sooner this apparent phenomenom can be confirmed or debunked.

cheers.. Jeffc

[Jeffc]

Some more interesting impressions about HDD files sounding different that are relevant to the above findings on BluRay ripped .wav files also possibly sounding different/better. Copied from a DIYaudio forum thread on flac files, hope this is OK. Cheers.. Jeff

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1812731#post1812731

alain_online

FLAC vs WAV  Post #13 
After converting some FLAC to WAV and WAV to FLAC, I've made some listening with 24/192, 24/96 and 16/44, playing successively the different files. Of course, this test setup does not allows me to draw solid conclusions.
I was expecting no difference, and I was wrong.
The music seems to be slightly improved in many ways: less sparkle (yes Sandy), a more analog presentation, better dynamics, ambiance feeling more there, better timbre accuracy, a more involving music. I can't say the difference was bigger with HD tracks.
Does anyone has same results, and even better, an explaination ?
Before ordering bigger hard disk drives, I'll repeat the tests after making some upgrades.
All the best,
Alain

[Telstar]

FLAC vs WAV  Post #13 
After converting some FLAC to WAV and WAV to FLAC, I've made some listening with 24/192, 24/96 and 16/44, playing successively the different files. Of course, this test setup does not allows me to draw solid conclusions.
I was expecting no difference, and I was wrong.
The music seems to be slightly improved in many ways: less sparkle (yes Sandy), a more analog presentation, better dynamics, ambiance feeling more there, better timbre accuracy, a more involving music. I can't say the difference was bigger with HD tracks.
Does anyone has same results, and even better, an explaination ?
Before ordering bigger hard disk drives, I'll repeat the tests after making some upgrades.
All the best,
Alain

This is not related to the ripping method. It depends on cpu usage and the realtime decompression that flac requires.
On my E8400 with xxhe I do not hear differences between flac and wav (both 16.44k1).

[Jeffc]

Hi Telstar,

Thanks for that insight. However, can I suggest that you try something? Take a track that you're very familiar with, rip it to HDD with EAC as a .wav file, make a lossless .flac file conversion of this, and then remake a .wav file (using a different name) from the .flac file. Listen to the original .wav in comparison to the .wav file remade from the .flac file. The md5 checksums of the 2 .wav files will still be identical but do they still sound identical? A few folk, including myself, have perceived differences in SQ. If this is so, it seems to challenge whether .flac is indeed lossless. And it appears that PeterSt might now have a means of examining this empirically based on what is output from, rather than input to, the receiver and DAC chips.  Very cleaver guy. 

cheers.. Jeffc

[PeterSt]

Hi Jeffc,

You won't get many complaints in here for hearing these tings, although by now people may think you live in a tree.
But ok, once there was a time I came up with "software makes a difference", and at last that can be proven now.

Right now I don't see how your FLAC procedure can make a difference. At least not with XXHighEnd. But if it does, I think copying a WAV from one place to the other already will.
Btw, this has nothing to do with FLAC being losless or not, because it just is and it can easily be checked.
But give it a week or so, and you can test it yourself.

Peter

[Telstar]

Hi Telstar,

Thanks for that insight. However, can I suggest that you try something? Take a track that you're very familiar with, rip it to HDD with EAC as a .wav file, make a lossless .flac file conversion of this, and then remake a .wav file (using a different name) from the .flac file. Listen to the original .wav in comparison to the .wav file remade from the .flac file. The md5 checksums of the 2 .wav files will still be identical but do they still sound identical? A few folk, including myself, have perceived differences in SQ. If this is so, it seems to challenge whether .flac is indeed lossless. And it appears that PeterSt might now have a means of examining this empirically based on what is output from, rather than input to, the receiver and DAC chips.  Very cleaver guy. 

cheers.. Jeffc

I will try. But i use EAC for wav-flac conversion, which is exactly the same flac version, so I believe that the two files will sound identical.
I try to find time to check this over the weekend.

[Jeffc]

Hi Peter,

Double story house, timber floors, some green leaves and tree branches outside the windows, big mop of hair until yesterday, maybe you're right.   Or as Pink Floyd - Brain Damage lyrics say,  "The lunatic is on the grass...
Got to keep the loonies on the path".

TBH I don't know how .wav > .flac > .wav can make difference either. I just listened on behalf of a friend that essentially asked 'see what you malke of these 2 files,' which I did and perceived SQ differences. The same 2 .wav files I compared I beleive are still available for download at VIPeers. (Anyone wanting the URLs to these, PM me). And if I have this right, the original .wav was ripped to HDD using EAC and an LG BluRay writer from a commercial Bluspec CD. This Bluspec CD was purchased with the standard CD of the same to highlight the improved SQ of a CD written using a BluRay writer, which they wouldn't promote if this is not so. From my and friends assessments of normal CD/DVD and BluRay written CD-Rs, they are chalk and cheese, BluRay CD-R wins easily.

My HDD file testing has been done using  a WinXP Dell D630 laptop (XXHE demo engine #1 mainly or Foobah/ASIO4ALL - will get to test this with Vista XXHE engine 3# soon too) via USB to a Trends UD10 DAC with an OK Burr Brown PCM2704 chip that also accommodates a headphone output direct from the chip. The UD10 is powered by a 4.8V 3700mAh 4 x subC battery pack designed for a model helicopter that has a equivalent inernal resistance <15 mohm. This designed for very current delivery needed for its purpose and sounds way better than usng the power supplied by USB. Headphones used are Alessandro MS1s and both the Trends UD10 and MS1s have been tinkered with to improved SQ futher.

Anyway, I've got thick skin and am compared to cop flack about the various claims made here, as long as folk don't discount them as complete bunk with a closed mind and without testing for themselves. And Peter, if you do get a chance to compared the files subjectively, please do, and empirically also using your new fan-dangled all singing all dancing test setup   , that could be very informative too.

And Hi Telstar, will be very interested to hear you findings and might be best to test the same files I downloaded from VIpeers. I'm off for a long weekend away thought so might be next week before I can contact anyone.


cheers.. Jeffc