Can't get to play in 96Khz

[ivo]

Hi Peter,

I am using the latest version.
The problem:
I use HP laptop dv5 with VHP and connect to it via USB my external DAC (Dr.DAC2) which supports 24/96 playback via USB.
When I connect the DAC to laptop and go to audio settings of laptop then I set the following: supported freq is 96kHz and set the default format for DAC in shared mode to 16 bit 96 KHz.
Next I set XXhighend DAC settings to the same 16 bit 96 KHz and start playing. So what happens is that my DAC via its LEDs informs me that it works still in 44.1 KHz.
However, when I play a test tone from within the Windows audio settings in 16/96 mode then my DAC's LED lights up showing that it works in 96 kHz mode.
So, is there a bug? I remember using some older version of XX and it worked ok this way, just do not remember which one. I also tried to check this via logfiles, but did not see there any lines telling in which mode XX plays. Maybe it is worth to add such a line in log file?

Thanks

[PeterSt]

Hey Ivo,

I guess I have more questions than you, but let me ask the most important one first : do you have sound from that (setting) or not ?

[ivo]

Peter,

I have sound from Windows settings page (the test tone) as well as I have sound from XX. Sound from XX goes ok just DAC shows 44 KHz mode.
I can post here some screenshots, but let me do this later when I am home.

p.s. I was also using Foobar2000 to see this but currently do not remember how DAC acted when fed music from Foobar2000. I will input more data late evening.

[PeterSt]

Ok, in that case two things can be the matter :

1. Your DAC is wrong, and it shows 44K1 where it should show 96K;
2. You go through Vista's resampler.

Ad 1.
Doesn't seem likely to me. Additionally I can fairly say that it is impossible that the DAC receives any formal data about that it should run on 44K1, but plays 96K in the mean time.
Also note that XX doesn't resample from 96 to 44K1 (or the other way around). It is just not in there.

Ad 2.
Highly unlikely. That is, assumed you are using Engine#3, which of course you are.
But if so, you just found a way to let Vista resample while in Exclusive Mode. You can put that on some forums ! haha

Now what ?

Ok, what puzzles me for now, is how you got into the 16 bit thing, while the file is 24 bits. You most probably have a reason of course.
Ok, XXHighEnd *will* go down from 24 bits to 16, which indeed happens when tou tell XX the DAC is 16 bits, and play a 24 bit file. Now, besides I'm interested in the answer to the "why ?", I can imagine very well that your DAC doesn't understand this combination. Also (thinking of the "why ?") I don't think I heard of an USB DAC doing 24 bits, which is accepted by XXHighend. In combination, your DAC might not even accept 16 bits, but now it gets tricked by the 16/96 combination. Remember, I make it that explicitly when the DAC asks for that which ... is just you by means of the XX setting concerned (DAC Is).

Your DAC may "know", when it's 16 bits it can't be 96KHz. Or anyway the display part. If the sound is OK, it is just that I assume.
However, your DAC may go further, and even resample to 44K1. Then you are out of luck.

If it is Vista afterall doing it to you, go to the properties - Advanced of the sound device  (USB Loudspeakers I think), and see what choice is in that combox. Is it 44K1 ? then change it into e.g. 48. Now play again, and see what the DAC tells. Is it 48 ? then Vista is resampling your data ...

Please note that all are just suggestions, because in normal practice this cannot exist.

Peter

[ivo]

Peter,

Thanks very much for detailed analysis.
1) When I connect my DAC to Vista, it shows device as "SPDIF - Dr.DAC2 USB audio", no USB loudspeakers. And I am able to control volume of sound going to DAC via Vista's mixer BTW. Should I connect it differently or what? I remember having another laptop with VISTA that did not allow me to control volume with my DAC, only from XX it was possible.
2) About the bits... I am basically playing mp3s, so are they 24 bits or 16 bits? The reason I use 16/96 is that my source music as I gues is 16 bits. 96kHz is just because my DAC performs a bit better when in 96kHz based on RMAA tests. Also based on my DAC specs it is ready for 24/96 using USB FullSpead mode.
3) Is it important which is the default format for Shared mode? Should it match the same bitrate and freq which I set in XX?

Thanks

[PeterSt]

I must say honestly ... I am a kind of lost on this one. The thing you have there (I just looked it up) actually is an USB soundcard or at least it can act as one. And now I don't know anymore ... this is new to me.

If you can control the volume by means of Vista's mixer ... that doesn't look good. Or it might be not good. Officially it can't be done, but in this case ...

Is it important which is the default format for Shared mode? Should it match the same bitrate and freq which I set in XX?

I understand that you have this question, but I brought it up for other reasons : it should not matter what you set there, because this is for Shared Mode only. And XXHighEnd plays in Exclusive Mode only. Thus : when it does matter what you set there, something is just very wrong (in Vista !) but now I don't know what to make of it. Not until you tried whether that makes different lights show at the DAC. So let's awaiten that please. Late tonight is ok.


MP3s can exist for 24/96 originals I guess (but maybe not because the converters may not exist). But in normal circumstances they will be 16 bits and drawn from 44K1 files.
If you want your DAC to show 96K instead of 44K1, hence want to upsample, that is okay. But it would only mean (regarding your original problem) that the umsampling somehow won't go. And to this respect you (or I) may wander what indication you are looking at ... is it the input towards the DAC (which should be 44K1 for MP3) or is the the (upsampled) output ?

But even if you now say "ahaaa !", then I personally still want to sort out the issue of being able to change the volume with Vista's mixer. Ok ?

Peter

[ivo]

Peter,

AAAAAhhhhhhhh!

I am very interested in this thing to be solved. Prior to XX I was using foobar as the best sounding stuff, so when I switched to XX (demo mode at that time) on one of my temp laptops I felt noticeable change in sounding, therefore decided to switch to XX. I bought laptop and your license, but now it seems XX sounds almost the same like foobar and it seems that is because it XX goes via Vista's jungle. Let us work together, I am ready to provide you with any data you need, just keep in mind that during daytime I am pretty busy and can more speak late evening. I am at GMT+2 (Riga). Today I will try to post here some of my test results with XX and with foobar.

See you,

Ivo

[PeterSt]

GMT+2 here as well ...

[ivo]

Peter,

All evening I was sitting by and doing experiments with both - Foobar and XX. Here are results:
1) Foobar was added the wasapi plugin AND used resampler to sample up to 96kHz. Also output depth set to 24 bits. So, when I pressed play my DAC's led jumped from 44kHz to 96kHz and stayed there until I switched off Foobar's resampler. From this I judge that I got sent my DAC 24/96 signal which is actually very nice in terms of SQ. But, before running via wasapi, I listened to the "default" Foobar and the sound is noticeably worse. It is smaller, it is narrow and etc. So finishing on Foobar we can say that wasapi=great SQ and it really is.
2) XXHighend. Peter, I think there is a bug in your player. As I understand Engine#3 is also using wasapi, so when I use it together with DAC is set to 24/96 then my DAC stays in 44kHz. Its LED is not jumping to 96kHz like in case with Foobar. However I think XX is sending to DAC 24/96.

Remember, in the morning I said that I can control volume from Vista's mixer. Actually Vista's Volume mixer consists of 2 parts - Device and Apps. So I am able to mute/change the sound only for device part, so in Apps part where also XX appears when played the sound cannot be controlled. So it is the same for Foobar and it seems that so far both players Exclusive mode works.

One more thing...I did not mention earlier. Yesterday when I did experiments with sample freqs I noticed that when DAC is is set to 16/96 or 24/96 XX does not play sound and popup arrives saying that DAC cannot accept that byte sequence. However mine is ready for 24/96 and foobar can do so. Actually, this popup arrived only when DIGITAL VOLUME < 0. When I set DV=0 then 16/96 and any other DAC setting played with sound.

Conclusion:

1) Peter, it seems that my Vista is not resampling as you mentioned because from experiments above we can see that both players can use DAC in exclusive mode. Just DIGITAL VOLUME must be 0. DAC LED problem with XX is still a mystery. Maybe adding some more info to log files will help us understand what is there.

2) And now the good news: XX in exclusive mode in whatever DAC mode plays better to me than Foobar, however Foobar is not bad at all. Anyway thanks to wasapi team and BIG THANKS to Peter for XX as it plays great!!!!

[PeterSt]

Hi Ivo,

GMT+2 here means near 1 am, so after this post I am . I hope you can respond one other time though, so I can work with that tomorrow.

I don't see the consistency between your observations 1) and 2) (first alinea).
1) : Foobar was added the wasapi plugin AND used resampler to sample up to 96kHz.
... which XX cannot do. This invalidates all, and I don't know what you are comparing. Thus :
As I understand Engine#3 is also using wasapi, so when I use it together with DAC is set to 24/96 then my DAC stays in 44kHz. which is exactly correct. XX can not upsample from 44.1 to 96.
However I think XX is sending to DAC 24/96. I don't know why you think that ...

So I am able to mute/change the sound only for device part, so in Apps part where also XX appears when played the sound cannot be controlled. So it is the same for Foobar and it seems that so far both players Exclusive mode works.

No ... neither and nothing should be able to influence the volume. Nothing, nowhere. Nada.
The fact that you can does not make sense to me. Yeah, that you are playing through a loudspeaker interface. Think about this. When this would be so indeed, the DAC (read : spdif side) can not be influenced, but the output volume (think headphone like) can still be influenced. This is normal. IOW, have a motherboard with analogue out, and it would make perfectly sense to control the volume AFTER THE DAC ("loudspeakers"). In your case this happens before the DAC obviously, because whatever it is what you have and control there, the DAC is a few meters away.

One more thing...I did not mention earlier. Yesterday when I did experiments with sample freqs I noticed that when DAC is is set to 16/96 or 24/96 XX does not play sound and popup arrives saying that DAC cannot accept that byte sequence. However mine is ready for 24/96 and foobar can do so. Actually, this popup arrived only when DIGITAL VOLUME < 0. When I set DV=0 then 16/96 and any other DAC setting played with sound.

Hahaha, I leave this one for you to sleep on. Symantics may me not that easy, but I think this can be twisted to : when the volume is working and bit perfect mode is not applying, Foobar can work too.
Note that I am not interested AT ALL here what Foobar can and XX cannot, bit this just cannot be right. Everybody knows that when a digital volume is not at 100% the bits are mangled. I don't say you should care, but I do say that any playback means "telling" all is bit perfect ... well, just is not because can not. The big problem is : this situation can not exist (of course, you have it and I sure believe it !!). This is not about XX/Foobar, this is about Vista.
Ivo, to me this is more important than you can guess : I have ONE situation (it is on the forum somewhere by the user Abstraction I think) where Foobar could play where XX could not. This is beyond my comprehension. However, your explanation from the last quote indicates Vista can be fooled somehow. Is can be fooled into playing in Exclusive mode (guaranteeing the bits are not mangled) while, well, the bits are mangled. Right now I can't get the real merits of it though, since what you say (in the quote) is not described by specs. So, that you actually will be using some loudspeaker output instead of SPDIF and that *that* allows for volume control seems logical to me, but why and how Exclusive Mode would reject that as a playback means, is beyond me. Keep in mind though that XX does not ever go into anything that even smells like Shared Mode, while I have no reasons to think another player would act the same. I tested Foobar on this and could not find flaws. This, however, does not tell it can't go into Shared Mode. XX just can't because it's not in there.

Peter, it seems that my Vista is not resampling as you mentioned because from experiments above we can see that both players can use DAC in exclusive mode.

The latter is not proven, but the first is already done by Foobar. That is, by your (merely implicit) descriptions. I'm afraid it says nothing.

Ivo, you left out the main part which I asked for ... changing the settings of that Advanced tab (please read back my earlier post). By now though, you must test this with the volume at 100% and at less.
I must be honest though, and your Foobar resampling probably tells all is unrelated to it. However, if you can again trick Vista by letting output e.g. 48 while Foobar outputs 96 it is clear. Foobar is then playing in Shared Mode. But if you let output Vista at 48 while the DAC keeps on showing 96, Foobar plays in Exclusive Mode just the same, and what will remain is the big puzzle how the volume is able to allow XX to play or not.

Maybe I overlooked something and maybe I am too fast. Anyway, please stick with me until this is sorted out. Please try some more before you are off to bed, so I can think further results over tomorrow. I'm off now anyway.

Thanks for all your time.
Peter
(not checked for typos)

[ivo]

Peter,

Woke up this morning and was amazed on your answers.... OK here we go... Experiments in the evening as usual...Now some thoughts and Qs:

1) Yesterday I specially set the default frequency to 44kHz via Vista's audio menu. Then rebooted the laptop with connected and turned on DAC (BTW, it is the default audio device in my Vista.) So, when laptop comes up DAC LED shows 44kHz. When now I start Foobar playback via its wasapi plugin the DAC LED jumps to 96kHz as I have set Foobar's resampler to sample up to 96kHz. So, this makes me think that Foobar is sending to my DAC 16/96. Also this proves that Foobar is in exclusive mode, because when I play Foobar without wasapi the sound is very narrow and low. The diff is huge. BTW, I do not have any USB loudspeakers in my Vista's audio devices, just "SPDIF-Dr.DAC2 audio device".
Now I turn off Foobar, reboot my DAC and it shows again 44kHz. I take now XX which is set to 24/96 in DAC is field and volume set to 0 dB. PLAY--> DAC's LED stays on 44kHz and sound is still very nice, it is very close to Foobar's in terms of size, stereo which also makes me think XX runs in exclusive. (I like it better that Foobar anyway, cause it is more smooth and so, but this is offtopic here now).
===============
What I really do not understand is here: You said that XX is not resampling anything. So, if I have an mp3 file which is created from 16/44 wav then it is still 16bit. So, if I set XX to DAC is 24/96 and play file which is 16/44 then what is being sent to DAC if XX is not resampling anything??? Does it make sense in which mode DAC is is set to? It seems to me that my DAC lights up LED for that frequency which it receives either it is 44 or 96 or anything else supported. So, I have read online tests with Dr.DAC2 which prove that this device properly reacts on different frequencies within signal. So this all makes me think that XX still sends 44 to my DAC even if I have set DAC is to 96.
===============
About the volume control... based on above that Foobar is in exclusive mode and also XX is then both these Apps cannot be controlled via Vista's mixer as I wrote, but only the device slider changes volume (the device is named SPDIF in my mixer). On my laptop there is even a sensor button on its body which mutes output to DAC when pressed. And this is the same SPDIF device button just on laptop's body. So I think it is ok. The main here is that from App level no one of the two Foobar and XX cannot be controlled from Vista's mixer while playing over wasapi.
===============

At the end I want to understand the following thing:

What is XX doing with 16/44 wave file when DAC is set to 24/96? All the time I was sure it is resampling it to 96kHz, but now it seems it is not what XX is doing really!

Thanks,
See ya later

[PeterSt]

Well, I hope I am not loosing track here ...

First of all, when you talk about "Device slider", do you mean the leftmost control in below picture ?
If so, it never should do anything, BUT, in your special USB soundcard etc. device ... I just don't know. I do know that you should keep it at 100%, but then I still don't know whether this is good for being bit perfect. This is just a new situation (and I guess to the world ). But that's for later.

Let's say : if I don't loose track, you don't get it. Haha, a comfortable feeling. Now :

Yesterday I specially set the default frequency to 44kHz via Vista's audio menu.

and

When now I start Foobar playback via its wasapi plugin the DAC LED jumps to 96kHz as I have set Foobar's resampler to sample up to 96kHz.

This would prove you're playing in Exclusive Mode.

Now I turn off Foobar, reboot my DAC and it shows again 44kHz. I take now XX which is set to 24/96 in DAC is field and volume set to 0 dB. PLAY--> DAC's LED stays on 44kHz

This may be were you are loosing it;
The fact that you tell XX that your DAC is 24/96 does exactly nothing to changes of sample rates. It only tells that you can do it ! For example, tick the Double box, and your DAC will show 88.2 (if all is right). However, if you first tell that the "DAC Is" 16/44.1 you will not be allowed to tick the Double box, and output will stay at 44.1.
And even so the output will stay at 44.1 when you don't tick that Double box.

Ahaaa ....

So, if I have an mp3 file which is created from 16/44 wav then it is still 16bit. So, if I set XX to DAC is 24/96 and play file which is 16/44 then what is being sent to DAC if XX is not resampling anything???

16/44

So this all makes me think that XX still sends 44 to my DAC even if I have set DAC is to 96.

Ah, you see, you already got that ! I guess it's the point that all is much more simple than it seems.

What is XX doing with 16/44 wave file when DAC is set to 24/96?

When you don't Double or Upsample ... nothing. When you Double / Upsample it will utilize the 24 bits and ouput at 88.2.
When you use the digital volume, it again will utilize the 24 bits (very important). This is unrelated to upsampling etc.
Note that, additionally, it also works the other way around : when your "DAC Is" set to 16/96 (they exist !) a 24/96 bit file will be nicely downconverted to 16/96.

I guess you can just go and listen to music tonight. No further experiments needed !

Peter


PS: Now keep in mind that volume change thingy of yours, because that, so far, is fishey.

[ivo]

Peter,

Yeah, now it seems I get better feeling on how the playback happens with your code

1) Yes, when I talk about slider then it is the leftmost on your picture. I keep in on 100% when I play. When I slide it down the volume decreases and when I click on mute button underneath the slider the volume mutes. The same happens when I press the sensor button on the laptop's body. The sound mutes. I can even decrease volume by sliding laptop's body volume control which duplicates basically the slider on the screen (the leftmost).
Peter, are you going to do something with this weird founding of volume control?

2) OK, now when all is almost clear to me. What about RMAA tests? I tend to think that output to my DAC in 16/88 may sound better if I Double, but to be sure it is so, I can run some RMAA tests against my DAC and see what the measurements are? Do you think it is worth to do? I just ran some RMAA tests to my DAC and it seems the lowest noise and widest dyn range ans stereo are in 16/96. Do not know so far about 16/88 or even 24/88. Will see in the evening.
Truth is that RMAA software is using something like MME and DirectSound to talk to the DAC which anyway goes via Vista's mixer and it means that these test numbers are not valuable because XX anyways runs bypassing the mixer. Any thoughts on this?

Well, a bit huge topic appeared, but it is worth so!

Thanks,

Ivo
 

[PeterSt]

Truth is that RMAA software is using something like MME and DirectSound to talk to the DAC which anyway goes via Vista's mixer and it means that these test numbers are not valuable because XX anyways runs bypassing the mixer. Any thoughts on this?

If that is so, it indeed doesn't say much. But I recall performing it myself a few years back, and that I could use ASIO ? but then the soundcard I used supports that, which is a prerequisite of course.

The Double indeed is there to kind of trick the DAC and force it into a mode it might be better at. Quattro the same (for 192KHz DACs). But don't upsample, because then you'll have just done something else. Also jitter specs should be better, but YMMV here.


I think I am going to find myself a USB soundcard. Didn't look into it yet, but they exist of course. I actually start to wonder how things work, then. Anyway, I should be seeing similar to what you experience with your DAC. I think.

Peter

[ivo]

Peter,

I checked the specs of my DAC and here is the interesting:

USB input can accept: 44, 48 and 96 kHz
SPDIF (coax and optical) inputs can accept: 44, 48, 88, 96, 176, 192 kHz

According to how XX works, if I want to playback over USB in 96 kHz, it is not possible from XX because it doubles from 44 to 88 or quads from 44 to 176. These freqs are not possible in my case over USB. Is it possible to make XX send 96 kHz to my DAC over USB? I am talking here on music files of 16/44 format. It means if I want to use Double and Quad functionality of XX I must anyway switch from USB to SPDIF unless music files are 48 kHz which are likely not existing at all.

Thanks,

Ivo