Glitches on my Dell (Not XX related)

[PeterSt]

Hey Chris,

First off, your intentional blowup with Dell most probably is not going to help you. However, it *does* help you when you know IN ADVANCE what the solution is (e.g. by means of another model) hence you can point out the culprit. It just works like that.
Note that often things are so complicated that there is no way to point out the guilty instance.

Then, if your internal speakers play glitch free (on the Dell, any version), I'd say you have to look in the direction of the Firewire stuff.
Now, this is by itself a not so easy solveable thing, because there's nothing to solve; Explicit drivers from the brand you use for Firewire do not exist, so there's nothing to upgrade there. However, otoh hand it's virtually more easy, just because it should work (by the drivers MS provides).
But ...

IMO this leads to (or may lead to anyway) the Firewire PC card not being okay. For that matter, there are a few things you can check :

1.
In the Fireface Mixer (the green icon) under Options, there's "ASIO direct monitoring". UNcheck that.
Does it help ?

2.
When things are unstable in the area of Firewire, you probably can notice this by comparing with the Mixer on-screen, and the Mixer not on-screen. When you do not have it on the screen, it should be better, or even just okay.
Does it help ?

3.
Lastly, when things are not okay, the Mixer might already tell you, because it doesn't refresh the volume bars quikly enough. So they stutter.
Do they ?


Even if nothing comes from the above, I would go out and buy an new Firewire card of a complete other brand, to save myself further troubles. What comes from this is
- or it doesn't help a bit (and changes NOTHING ... mind that !) which makes you conclude the culprit must be somewhere else afterall (which would be withgoing with the above 1,2,3 didn't help;
- or it helps and you're done.

HTH

[Chris V]

Just a bit of an update for those that are still awake through this saga

There are a few things you can check :

1.
In the Fireface Mixer (the green icon) under Options, there's "ASIO direct monitoring". UNcheck that.
Does it help ?
Doesn't help

2.
When things are unstable in the area of Firewire, you probably can notice this by comparing with the Mixer on-screen, and the Mixer not on-screen. When you do not have it on the screen, it should be better, or even just okay.
Does it help ?
No difference whether on screen or not

3.
Lastly, when things are not okay, the Mixer might already tell you, because it doesn't refresh the volume bars quickly enough. So they stutter.
Do they ?
Watched through many glitches but cant see any discernible effect on the volume bars

Have ordered Expresscard - Firewire adaptor, which should be here early next week. A good by-product of all this, is that I am learning plenty of things about how computers work

[PeterSt]

Watched through many glitches but cant see any discernible effect on the volume bars

Which tells at least that somewhere further down the line things go wrong. Note though, that IMO the volume bars derive their data from the Fireface itself, although I must say that I don't know whether the Direct Asio Monitoring is needed for that (to be On this time). So maybe re-check that (so, with On).

*If* I am right that the data comes from the Fireface, it would go wrong even *after* the Fireface. How ? ... towards your DAC ?
For that matter, I think you should check whether Analogue Out from the Fireface gives you the glitches as well ...

Uhohh ...

[Chris V]

I've been doing some more tests that might help diagnose this. I have to say before diving in, that XX and Windows Media Player behave very similarly concerning glitches, except XX sounds fantastic, by comparison.

OK
Using my XP laptop, engine 2 doubled, playing (16bit,44.1Khz) via firewire into Fireface at 128 samples and then Tact, there are no glitches. In all the time I was playing music, it only missed a beat once when I was stressing the PC on the Internet at the same time.

Using my new Vista laptop, as stand alone, with Windows Media Player (WMP) on internal speakers there were no glitches at either 44.1 or 192KHz

Using the Vista laptop, with WMP via firewire into Fireface at 128 samples and then Tact, there were a few glitches at 44.1KHz which could be 'damped out' using 512 samples on the Fireface.
At 192KHz and 128 samples there were lots of glitches.

Cant really figure this out except, to this unskilled eye, it seems that the more demand I place on data transfer (44.1 tp 192kHz) the worse the glitches, and that these can be smoothed out a bit by damping down on the sampling rate of the Fireface.

[PeterSt]

Wait a minute ...

... Not that I told it, but at 192K the Fireface's buffers should be at 256 from theory, at least (88K2 -> 128 = (more than double the rate) 256).

Logic ? well, no. Not if you think (uhhm ... like I did) that the buffer in the Fireface is meant to CAPTURE the data from the PC. But what if this buffer is meant (also ?) for feeding the DAC ??

Otoh, I think you reported that with the Fireface at 1024 you also have glitches ... or ?

and

What if you just don't let upsample the TacT ?

[Chris V]

Hi again Peter

Not that I told it, but at 192K the Fireface's buffers should be at 256 from theory, at least (88K2 -> 128 = (more than double the rate) 256).

Yes my plan initially is to run at 44.1K with the possibility of doubling with engine #3 to 88.2K. I dont routinely sit at 192K, but merely use it as a rapid way to judge the level of glitches (which are there, but far less common at 44.1K).
I have heard ticking if the buffer is too small. Can you also get drop-outs/glitches if the buffer is too small?
I routinely pick a buffer of 128 as Bert uses this without problem.

Logic ? well, no. Not if you think (uhhm ... like I did) that the buffer in the Fireface is meant to CAPTURE the data from the PC. But what if this buffer is meant (also ?) for feeding the DAC ??
Otoh, I think you reported that with the Fireface at 1024 you also have glitches ... or ?

Yes indeed when glitches are present, they persist all the way up to a buffer of 1024, but reducing somewhat as the buffer size increases.

What if you just don't let upsample the TacT ?

I have no control over the upsampling of the TacT, it automatically brings all digital inputs up to 192K so it can apply room correction.
What I will say, is that it displays the input frequency on the front screen whilst playing, and this display always faithfully mimics what has been selected downstream and never flickers during the glitches.

[PeterSt]

For that matter, I think you should check whether Analogue Out from the Fireface gives you the glitches as well ...

??

[PeterSt]

Hey Chris,

How is it going ? any progress / degress / superstress ? 

[Chris V]

Hi Peter
Thanks for keeping in touch. Lots of effort but no progress yet. Heres a quick update.

1. Not able to try the analogue output from the FF400 as I dont have cables and plugs.
2. Not able to find a Vista version of PCI latency software (still looking)
3. I bought an Expresscard Firewire card but, despite being advertised as such, it did not work with Vista. Its gone back for a refund. There are very few of these cards on the market and one is promised later in the year I believe by RME.
4. I have been in touch with RME and they suggested adjusting the settings of the Multimedia Class Scheduler Service.  Under this Multimedia Class Scheduler Service you can register your application as a Pro
Audio application. This seemed too complicated for me so I have not tried yet.
5. I have posted on the TacT forum and am getting help there. It looks like there are no issues between compatibility of the FF400 and Tact 2.2XX though one person had noted one or 2 glitches from electrical stuff switching on in his house. He recommended trying a Toslink which I will do.
6. I am still in regular contact with Dell and with Berts help was able to supply the tag no. of a Dell computer that works just fine in Vista with a FF400. So they cant use the FF400 as an excuse!
7. I disabled everything I felt safe to do on the PC (soundcards, networks etc)
8. I have said my prayers before going to bed at night, and have been (relatively) well behaved with those nice people on AA.

Here is a bit of advice I just received. It should help define the problem area.

> Are you hearing a click or a short duration mute?  When a digital
> input loses lock, a click is heard.  When a PC gets busy, it may
> mute for a fraction of a second. 

Sometimes a bit difficult to tell, particularly when the duration is very small, but almost certainly muting (drop outs).

> To trouble shoot you can listen to the FF400 via its headphone
> jack. That will tell you if the problem is upstream or downstream
> of the FF.

Finally, for every glitch, I get about a minutes worth of magic from engine#3 and its all worth it

[PeterSt]

Here's a card of which the word goes that it works : http://www.supermediastore.com/ads-technologies-api-601-pyro-card-bus-1394-dv-for-notebooks.html#description

Gerner uses it into his Fireface400 from (I think) a Dell laptop running with Vista.

[Gerner]

Gerner uses it into his Fireface400 from (I think) a Dell laptop running with Vista.

Which is almost true. My LT is a Thosiba with open exhaust pipes..he he

Gerner

[PeterSt]

[...]
Then, if your internal speakers play glitch free (on the Dell, any version), I'd say you have to look in the direction of the Firewire stuff.
Now, this is by itself a not so easy solveable thing, because there's nothing to solve; Explicit drivers from the brand you use for Firewire do not exist, so there's nothing to upgrade there. However, otoh hand it's virtually more easy, just because it should work (by the drivers MS provides).
But ...

IMO this leads to (or may lead to anyway) the Firewire PC card not being okay. [...]

Thank you Gerner. According to the above this shouldn't matter, but again all comes down to listening through the internal speakers or headphone;
If there are the glitches just the same, the other Firewire card isn't going to help.

So Chris ...

> To trouble shoot you can listen to the FF400 via its headphone
> jack. That will tell you if the problem is upstream or downstream
> of the FF.

I actually don't see you explicitly answer (or respond to) on this one.

Do note : depending on your hearing capabilities, ind *if* you can hear slight glitches here too, you just might be listening to what Vista's "KMixer" makes form it. You *will* be listening through this KMixer this way, and we already know that for sound quality it isn't right. But personally I wasn't looking for glitches through headphones, so maybe they are just there.

Watched through many glitches but cant see any discernible effect on the volume bars

Which tells at least that somewhere further down the line things go wrong. Note though, that IMO the volume bars derive their data from the Fireface itself, although I must say that I don't know whether the Direct Asio Monitoring is needed for that (to be On this time). So maybe re-check that (so, with On).

*If* I am right that the data comes from the Fireface, it would go wrong even *after* the Fireface. How ? ... towards your DAC ?
For that matter, I think you should check whether Analogue Out from the Fireface gives you the glitches as well ...

Parallel in waiting for another Fireware PCcard, it might be useful at this monent to get a bunch of those in the picture below. Note you'd need the Mono version (this *is* important).
You can also buy a couple of leads doing the same. A pro audio shop (with pro synths and keyboards etc.) will most probably have them.
It will prove wether things go wrong after the Fireface or not. Thus, if with analogue out there are no glitches, it's the Fireface communication with the TacT.

Btw, those plugs are always very handy, just because you can do many things with the Fireface, but then you'd always need these.

[Chris V]

Thanks Guys

According to Amazon, that ADS Technologies API-601 PYRO Card Bus 1394 DV for notebooks is discontinued in the UK - will keep up the search.

I haven't tried the FF400 headphones experiment yet as I sold my expensive Stennheiser headphones a little while ago on E-Bay having not used them for 6 years! Will go and buy some cheap phones now to check it out. I dont think I will miss these glitches if they are present 

Have found the adaptors of which you spoke 1/4" (6.35mm) plug to phono socket mono in my Maplins catalogue, and will get some in.

Do note : depending on your hearing capabilities, ind *if* you can hear slight glitches here too, (in the Fireface 400 headphone socket) you just might be listening to what Vista's "KMixer" makes form it. You *will* be listening through this KMixer this way, and we already know that for sound quality it isn't right. But personally I wasn't looking for glitches through headphones, so maybe they are just there.

Can you explain this a bit more. I thought by the time the signal got to the Fireface it was well clear of any contibution from the PC and Vistas "KMixer"

Thanks again Chris

[PeterSt]

This is just presumptions :

In the "kernel" of any audio player, many many things can go wrong. In fact, it would be one of the major reasons why I started XX.
Now, since it is not so difficult to prove that Vista makes a mess of things at upsampling (Test track with distortion which isn't there... currently we do not know what goes wrong more ...

Note that there are two kind of glitches as such (or as how we could address them) : the sound stopping for a very short while (actually a dropout) and the sound "sticking" for a while with the same sound (samples).

The latter is very easy to incur for if the programmer did something wrong.

Note though that you didn't listen through headphones yet, so you have been listening to the same as I do overhere. I didn't hear glitches through loudspeakers and Vista upsampling, so you did not either because of that (!!).

If it's not clear, it's not important I think.

[Chris V]

Right, I've been shopping, but unfortunately have a party, Christening and dance on this weekend so there will not be much time to experiment

I bought headphones and the adaptors.

So far the headphones plugged in the FF400 also show the glitches, which I believe are drop outs. This is the only positive result so far.

Cheers
Chris