Engine #3 & Vista: No sound

[jtt]

Hi,

I am not able to get any sound with Engine #3 in Vista (#1 and #2 works ok.
My gear: Hp Pavillion tx1000 (tablet pc), Vista Home Premium sp 1, 2GB Ram, AMD Turion 64x2, Stello DA220MKII USB DAC, XXHE 9v-6a (activated)
In playback devices I have set "Speakers (5-USB Audio DAC)" as default device and configured this one with default format 16/44100 plus marked for exclusive mode.
In XXHE Output I get to choose from "Primary Sound Driver", "Speakers (5-USB Audio DAC)", "Speakers (Realtek High Def. Audio)" and Realtek Digital Output High Def. Audio.
No matter which one I choose I get no sound. I get no error messages and the marker below "album" is advancing showing XXHE is playing.

Could it be that the problem has something to do with "Speakers (5-USB Audio DAC)"  not being my "Primary Sound Driver"? If so how do I get it to be?
All help to bring me to the promised sound (or vice versa) is appreciated.
Thanks.

Jon

[PeterSt]

Hi Jon,

Indeed it is so that Engine#3 can (momentarily) only work with the Primary Sound Device;
In order to achieve that, rightclick on the small speaker icon in the taskbar tray, choose Playback Devices, and then click on the "Speakers etc." device, followed by a click on the Set as Standard (or default) button at the bottom of that screen.

Then it should just work ... But :

In playback devices I have set "Speakers (5-USB Audio DAC)" as default device

and

Could it be that the problem has something to do with "Speakers (5-USB Audio DAC)"  not being my "Primary Sound Driver"?

... I don't understand this much. Or you may not understand that "default device" and "primary sound driver" are the same ? ... they are. In that case my above explanation probably won't help.

Let me know what happens Jon,
Peter

[jtt]

Hi Peter,
Thank you for your quick reply.

Or you may not understand that "default device" and "primary sound driver" are the same ? ... they are. In that case my above explanation probably won't help.

I was not certain, but now I am shure. This should mean I have set things like they should: "Speakers(5-USB Audio DAC) = Default Device = Primary Sound Driver.
(I was puzzled since I have the possibility to choose between both "Speakers(5-USB Audio DAC)" and "Primary Sound Driver" in the Output drop down list in XXHE - but those two are then
obviously the same)
So my problem then lies elsewhere and tonight I have downloaded and tried several previous XXHE versions and the funny thing is that up until version 09-t7 it works fine(engine #3). Going to 09-u0 it does not work.
I have tested a few versions ( about 5) later than 09-t7 and none of these works. So......am I stuck or is there something I can do?

Jon

[jtt]

Hi Peter,

This is a bit embarrasing - no, it's quite embarrasing - please disregard my post. I found that raising the volume slider to the top (volume -0db (I thought that was dead quiet))
fixed it all. I now have sound from engine #3 using version 09-v7.
Sorry for taking up your time - on the other side: Another happy customer!

Jon

[PeterSt]

Ah, that is great Jon.
But hmm ... I still feel responsible. The point is, when "you" would have setup something wrongly, your speakers will burst of static when that volume slider would be right up. But since you are not the first one, and even I still don't think of this (you are the proof), this is quite annoying. So ...

I'll think of something better. Some reminder at startup when the volume is still that low.

Peter

[Abstraction]

Peter--
I have a related problem. I am using 9v-6a.
Everything works fine with #3 Engine when I
output through a Wavelength Brick, but
with a Empirical Off-ramp to an ancient, but
wonderful Timbre TT-1 (which works ok
with Engine 1 and 2), I get no playback,
though the album timescale moves, and
then  I get the error message:

End Point Create Failed
The DAC does not accept the byte sequence

and then on another popup
it gives a sequence that the it looks to me
the Timbre should handle
1/14/44,100/171,400/4

The Timbre sounds great with Samplitude,
and was thinking of using it in may main rig.

Also, Vista is still a little shaky with most players.
J River, the new version of which sounds quite good,
and Foobar.  At first, with Vista, I was getting some 
random popping and crackling.  What concerns me now,
as I will probably continue using J River casually for
its good frontend, is that it sounds fine when playing
but when I scroll while playing (which was rock solid with XP) I get
break up.  And perhaps if it is that near the edge perhaps
it isn't doing the best when it is not breakingup.

The only thing I can think of is that I do have enough
RAM.  2gb currently installed. Celeron 2.8 ghz processor.

   Don

[PeterSt]

Hi Don,

Also, Vista is still a little shaky with most players. [...] is that it sounds fine when playing
but when I scroll while playing (which was rock solid with XP) I get
break up.  And perhaps if it is that near the edge perhaps
it isn't doing the best when it is not breakingup.

I left the context out ([...]) but it is exactly that which is not clear to me. Do you mean that with XXHighEnd this happens ? if so, there must be something seriously wrong in the basis, because there really is no way I can let that happen (and all was explicitly made for being able to cope with that). But before proceeding on this ... did you mean XXHighEnd or JRiver ?
Btw, 2GB is sufficient for normal operation (which would be a 1-track 60 minute 16/44.1 album -> 60 minute of 24/96 is too much for 2GB).
Also, the Celeron is not the best processor at all. Actually, it's the worst for this kind of stuff. I'm not sating this is doing it to you, but chances *are* high.

The Timbre;

1/14/44,100/171,400/4

I expect you were able to have 3 typos in here (yes, 3 and if so, that indeed would be the normal data to handle by a DAC.
I tried to find specs, but couldn't in 10 minutes (maybe it's too old to have specs on the Intenet hehe), but a chance exists that indeed it can't handle this because it just doesn't tell the truth, or does'n't tell at all properly what it can handle (the DAC talks to the software for that matter, or *should* do that ...). With Engine3 this is important, because Engine3 doesn't allow any resampling by the OS. So, it must know the sample rate and bit depth, and if that is not reported or is reported wrongly (like 48K would be wrong for 44K1 playback), it can't work.

I must honestly say that I never heard of such an errorneous situation for the more ancient DACs, whereas for the modern Soundcards/DACs this is often a known problem. E.g. most laptops suffice this problem, because they operate at 48K only, and expect the OS to resample to that rate first. But this can hardly be expected from a DAC of over 10 years old, when computer playback was hardly in order.

Just for some insight, you could run the DAC Test (last option in the "DAC Is" combobox in the Settings Area). Don't forget to load a normal .WAV file in the Playlist Area first. Then please show the output here. Maybe I can make something out of that.
If nothing is shown to be possible, it's most probably the DAC not reporting back, and if something is shown, we'll proceed on that.

Edit : I suddenly thought of this :
It is the Empirical determining what's possible, and below picture (I think) shows the possibilities of the Offramp, which (again, I think) imply that it runs on 24 bits only.
If this is true, this too is a common problem (the Benchmark suffers from that too -> Does Engine 3 work with USB Benchmark Dac 1?);
Now, depending on what the DAC Test tells (whether 24 (32) bit connections work), you should set the DAC Is to a 32 (!) bit connection. What comes from that for SQ is quite unpredictable for me at this time, because the Offramp *will* output 24 bits, while the Timbre can accept 16 bits only.
It is my suggestion to first try what happens, and then see further ...
Always have a pre-amp hence normal volume control in the chain at trying this, or otherwise things may turn out badly for your speakers and all !

Peter

[Abstraction]

Peter--
It was late.  I was already into my nightcap whiskey. But, yes, three typos.  Redundancy is a wonderful saving grace in information theory.

Okay: Timbre tt-1 specs:

Rez 18 bit (not typo), 44.1
Input sampling rates: 34, 44.1, 48

Using engine 1 and Off-Ramp, I am getting the best sound I have ever had out of my PC system.

I can get the Timbre to work with Engine by 3 way of a HagUSB, so the problem is Off-Ramp or the interaction between Off-Ramp and Timbre.  With the Hag, however, Engine 3 does not sound as good as Engine 1 by way of Off-Ramp.  Although I have no way to compare, I think j river with USB-ASIO, XP, and Hag sounded as good as XX with Engine 3 and HAG.

So this information on Off-Ramp from the Empirical audio site:

“# All [versions of Off-Ramp] will pass 16/44.1kHz, 24/96kHz, MP3 and iTunes unmodified files”

“And  Using our new "driverless" firmware*, the Off-Ramp Turbo 2 is truly plug-and-play. There is no driver to install and it works with WinXP, Vista and MAC. Changing from 16/44.1 to 24/96 or any other sample-rate is transparent.”

Butthis from one of Steve’s posts on the Empirical Audio Forum on Audiocircle:

“PC:
[The new firmware] actually outputs 24/44.1 rather than 16/44.1, but this does not affect most DACs…..  When you change from 24/44.1 to 24/96, this happens automatically.  However when you change from 24/96 back to 24/44.1 you may have to unplug the USB cable and replug it for the change to take effect.  You may have to re-select the output device in the player.”
 
Although I would like to use of j river, because of the access it gives to the data, I mentioned the problem with it (breakup when scrolling) only because I thought it might indicate a lack of robustness in my implementation of Vista that would show up in less dramatic ways with XX. The problem I had with pop and crackle, when I first installed Vista and XX, has ceased.  I am not sure which of the many things I did solved the problem.  But XX sounds great on #1 Engine.  And it works on #2 engine.  I haven't really listened to it much, but it is--on quick impression--a bit muddled by comparison to #1.

However, with HagUSB and Engine 3, XX is flakey when I change volume while music is playing XX: Sometimes closing  down playback  for a few seconds; sometimes “Prog not responding appears”; sometimes playback resumes with much lower volume.

Thanks, Don

[PeterSt]

Don,

XX is flakey when I change volume while music is playing

Assuming you mean the digital volume of XX : This is logic;
Since XX plays from memory and can do that without userinterface (Unattended Playback), the engine has to be restarted at changing the volume, and the file has to be reloaded. For a 10 minute track this may take 2 seconds for your Celeron (here it goes within 0.1 secs).

sometimes playback resumes with much lower volume.

Rather impossible Don. But of course to me it happens too that I drop that slider just a tick further than intended. That is, if you indeed talk about the digital volume. So, lower volume means a lower volume setting which is visible, and I never heard of that going by itself. BUT, please say so if you are suggesting that, I will believe it (then ).

Although I would like to use of j river, because of the access it gives to the data

I didn't try JRiver for several years, so I don't know what you mean and can't really imagine anything (really lacking in XX for such a matter). Don't hesitate to elaborate a bit, or ask anything you want to be added.
But keep in mind : sound quality is topmost priority here ...

Peter

[Abstraction]

Peter--

I understand that you are more interested in the volume issue.  It is
important to me because I do not have remote volume controls on my
amps.  I use software volume to make small changes to compensate
for the difference in recording levels from recording to recording.  So
when a small change upsets the playback for 3-5 seconds, it is a significant
problem.  As I often listen to randomized playlists, this could be
a serious irritation.

I am not sure that I have yet found a player that will allow this on Vista.
v.13--just out--of j river may do that.

For the present, however, I am more interested in getting Engine 3 to
work.  If it will sound better than Engine 1, which is pretty damned good,
I might be convinced to put up with some inconvenience of XX with
respect to the handiness of the frontend.  Did you see anything in the
data I sent you that might cause the Off-Ramp and Timbre tt-1 combination
not to work?  (I have also written Steve Nugent at Empirical about this).

I agree that SQ is important, and XX is very promising, but for me--
and I expect for a lot of other folk--it is the music that is goal.  I
really don't want to think about the software, the equipment, or even
the sound quality.  Sound quality is not the goal; it is the means.  The music
is goal.

A music player should give highest possible sound quality and should
allow attention to the music with complete concentration.  Whenever
the reproduction calls attention to itself, attention to the music is lost.

Best, Don

[PeterSt]

No Don, I did not see anything new in the data you gave. Well, the opposite in fact (if I read it correctlty, it says that indeed the output to the DAC is 24 bits, and your DAC most probably can't cope with that (mine can, but that doesn't help you, apart from that it could exist)).

Btw, did you run the DAC Test ? I'd still be interested in the results of that ...


About the volume, yes, I understand. But this is probably not going to work for you. You may have noticed that the volume does all but "small steps", and this is on purpose (SQ SQ SQ ).

The digital volume was not created for conveniency, but for better SQ, which falls apart in two areas :
1. leave out the pre-amp (but keep in mind the impedance !)
2. create a better balance between analogue volume and digital volume.

I won't exlain the latter, but with the preamp in the mix, it most often is better to have the digital volume 6 or 12 dB down, and control the remainder with the analogue volume (just try it, once you can).

Sound quality is not the goal; it is the means.  The music is goal.

Haha, well put Don. This is btw how XXHighEnd started off : do nothing and all is optimal (and it was at the time). But lateron several other things were found influencing (processor core appointment is one of them as an indirect means), and things got more complicated afterall just with the sole objective to improve again. And sadly, these kind of settings (the Q1 slider is another) are different per setup.
Also, might you be heading for a new PC in the near future, make that tomorrow. Have a powerful core2duo processor in there, and find yourself with better "music" again. I mean it, it helps. Not that the power as such is needed (at all) but it influences largely. And really (sadly) the Celeron is not the best.

Peter

[SeVeReD]

Just to emphasize.

I would drop XXHE in a flash if I thought Peter was putting convenience over Sound Quality... which is the best musical presentation for me.  If XXHE does nothing but be the best CD player I have ever heard, then I'm happy. 

If you are adding different songs from different albums, well, for me that just doesn't work.  You'll always have different volume levels between songs then, so if you try to play different songs from different albums, you'll either be up and down with the volume for each song change or, most music programs are going to offer some type of leveling (replaygain for foobar) that destroys the music for me (won't be bit perfect, won't be phasure, will make the music flat).  XXHE only allows 6db changes of volume for a reason, it keeps it bit perfect and doesn't destroy the integrity of the music.  It would be nice to have finer degree of change, but it destroys the bit perfect that makes XXHE phasure.  I just put on a whole album and listen, like we did in days gone by with cdplayers.  If I want a jukebox, there are plenty of programs out there for that.  But changing the volume any other way then how Peter does it is going to destroy the best playback and presentation of the music.

I think there are a lot of people who want their music played back at the highest level of fidelity; convenience be damned.  Witness everyone excited about cplay for XP (a much stripped down player); all these people need to load up vista and give XXHE a try too and get away from asio (which cplay must use).  What Peter also did with Unattended mode is genius... get rid of the player altogether when playing music, because everything you do to a computer, everything you have running, every extra program, extra hardware...... it all seems to make a difference.  That's how he's been able to add features, but keep the SQ topmost.  Throw your hands up and give up, or be happy with a jukebox...or have both if you want; XXHE and a different player for jukebox play, (I just have XXHighEnd loaded up; I can't see how having another player loaded but not running could influence,,, but hey, I've not been able to figure out a lot of the whys things could influence; therefore I keep it simple).  Lots of flavors out there, but XXHE is the most musically involving for me and faithful to the original recording.... that's what I'm looking for.

[Abstraction]

Peter / SeVeReD--

Okay, so I loaded Vista for a third time. Tweaked, ran around the church
three times counterclockwise etc. and have XX (and the other players--j river and
foobar--that were also crackling and popping on Vista) working well with HagUSB
to Timbre tt-1.  It also works with Wavelength Brick, and the fact that doesn't
sound very well with it isn't a problem of Vista or XX.  I am beginning to see
that the Timbre is a fairly remarkable dac despite its ten-year-old technology.

I am also comparing  the Computer with a Celeron and Vista and a laptop with a duo core
and XP and j river with ASIO USB, which is very damned good.  The ASIO USB, to my
ear, is several cuts better than any other ASIO that I have heard. 

I want to get this settled. I like listening to music,but I really despise listening to sound.
At any rate, XX sounds as good or better on my rig as WaveLab, and files have to be
loaded in it one at a time. 



At any rate

[PeterSt]

Hi Don,

So you have made quite some proceedings !
Is there anything I can do right now ? It feels that you have a question, but I don't see it.

Peter

[Abstraction]

No question in the previous post.  Just reporting on my
progress. I suppose the unposed question was one you
were not the person to ask, which was how to get
the system to work with Off-Ramp.

And Steve at Empirical Audio has been helpful with that
problem.  I have it working beautifully with Foobar, and
I am now through several tracks with the new j river in
WASAPI mode (which sounds excellent) without any
pops and cracks, though this has involved more tinkering
than one might think possible with relatively simple
software.

I can run XX engines 1 and 2, and they sound very good most
of the time.  The wav files, which are ones I often use as
tests and know to be okay, occasionally sounds very briefly
like a dirty CD skipping--that little trilling for 2 or 3 seconds.
There is also an occasional pop and crack.

I can get no output at all from #3.  It keeps telling me that
the dac won't run a particular data sequence--the one I
mistyped in an earlier post-- that it will and does with engines
1 and 2. 

The problem here surely has something to do with the
relation between XX and the new Off-Ramp firmware,
which will only accept 24 bit, or so Steve says and
sometimes seems to be true.  Although I have 24 bit
selected in Vista Sound Control panel, and it seems to
have to be at 24. J River occasionally pops if it is set to 24 bits,
but seems to be fine at 16 bits. I mention this only as
information that might be relevant to the overall question
of what my gear might or might not be capable of.

I am at loss as to what to ask.  I want, like everyone else,
to say, just make it work!! Is it simply that whole set is just
too damned fragile?  I really want to make this go
I am convinced of the virtues of XX.  It works without
problem with the Brick.  With it, however, the music
sounds thin and far away compared what I was getting
with XP and the HagUSB when I started this exercise.

  Don