double & upsampling

[astacus21]

Hi Peter and all

I have a strange problem. When i tick double and upsampling my extrernal processor locks at 88.2khz but the sound is distorted.
I thought that it was a driver problem, until i used foobar with wasapi plugin and it works as it should. Any ideas???
i'm using the latest version of XXHE

[PeterSt]

Hi,

I have a question which may look unrelated at first glance, but it very much is :
How can you tell that the output from the plugin is 88K2 ? Most probably you can't, meaning that it is possible that the OS resamples for you (and *then* the output to the processor is 88K2, but in a unintended way).

To me something like the above would be the only explanation *unless* I am doing something wrong with the upsampling (but as you probably know this is finished for quite some months now, and I don't hear anything about it (including from myself ).

A test which might give an indication, is checking whether Foobar output is in Exclusive Mode (if you know how to do it).
In the mean time I will investigate Foobar myself; wanted to do that anyway.

Peter

[astacus21]

I think i understand why you asking that.

I'm sure that os doesn't resamples because in audio advanced properties (drivers settings) if i set for example 96khz i still get 88khz at spdif when i press the play button.
If the driver do something to xxhe output then i should have seen 96khz.
I 've done the same test with foobar. Wasapi output, secret rabbit resampler at 88.2 and i set the audio properties at 96khz. When i press the play button i get 88khz at the dac but the sound is normal. I tried with different drivers but i got the same. So i believe it is something wrong with xx upsampling.

[PeterSt]

So i believe it is something wrong with xx upsampling.

... which would be true if it didn't work here or with others either, but it just does ...
However, might you be in doubt, tick the AA checkbox, which would give your SSRC resampling (loading takes long then).

Also, depending on the type of file you use, unticking Enable Crack Detect is a good thing to test with in this case (supposed yo played DTS or something like that).

Anyway, I just checked out Foobar, and indeed I can't find anything wrong with it (at normal 44K1 play and upsampling to 88K2 via PPHS resampling). So it wouldn't be in that area. I noticed something else though ...

I took these 30 minutes to checkout SQ of Foobar now, and at noticing some remarkable differences (not in favour of Foobar hehe) I started setting the parameters concerned. This pointed me at the minimum buffer size of 100ms, while XXHighEnd uses 1ms - 270 ms depending on combinations of settings. Now :
The Foobar buffer in Playback - Output does not act the same as the buffer in XXHighEnd I refer to BUT at using the Foobar buffer at e.g. 100ms for sure you would feed the audio chain with something which is much more "at ease" than the XX buffer at in fact any setting.
To work as stressless as possible in XXHighEnd you should set the Q1 slider to a higher value (but too high and it doesn't work anymore (skips and things). And I see from your sig that you use a Q1 of -4, which is the most stressful setting (but generally with the best sound !) and which for sure not everybody can use ! (ticks, distortion).

Looking at the input buffer at the soundcard, I couldn't find differences between Foobar and XXHighEnd; both need 96 (+ 64) samples of buffer in order to play 88K2/16 (I didn't try 88K2/24 btw). Both can use 48 (+64) samples to play 44K1/16. So at that end both are as "lean" which btw (to me) is obvious for WASAPI playback (at that end all is the same when talking about achieveable latency).


Can you do something with this information ?
Please keep in mind that I'd do anything to solve this for you, because if "some" WASAPI player (that's what it comes to) is able to work with a soundcard, there's really no reason XX shouldn't do it too. We must only find out what causes it not to, ok ?


PS: There's so many things involved that it's easy to forget one; It just slipped into my mind that XXHighEnd would be upsampling to 24 bits (actually 32 bits) ALWAYS as long as the soundcard supports it *and* you told XX that the soundcard supports it. So note that when you'd upsample in Foobar to 88K2/16 there's twice as less data going through opposed to XX which will output 88K2/32. When you want to test this, set your DAC = to 88K2 (or 96) / 16 bits (or make sure you play Foobar at 88K2/32 (padded)).

PPS: I hope I make sense to you ...

[astacus21]

thanks for your time Peter.

I had almost  (double and triple) check everything from the above. I'm a computer expert and i tried almost everything before i post.
If it is working for you then it must be something with soundmax driver. I know that soundmax resamples 44.1 to 48 when transmitting to spdif and for that reason i want to sent 88khz by software, to play untouched after resample. I would give it a try with another soundcard and i'll tell you if it works for me.

With soundmax i tried 88.2/16 bit and i set the dac option to 96/16 at xx. So this is something that i must check. Thanks for the info.

Anyway the difference is huge between xx and foobar. i love xx for the sound and the only reason to use foobar is just for testing .

[PeterSt]

I would give it a try with another soundcard and i'll tell you if it works for me.

Yeah, but although that might help you, it isn't the solution to something which just should work from the beginning. Most important of course is if Foobar behaves the same in all aspects (about your resampling to 48K first maybe). Because if not then it's apples and oranges.
Please keep me posted !

[astacus21]

hmmm...
when i set foobar resampler to 48khz i get 48 at the dac and sound its ok. if i change to 88/32 i get an error of unsupported format.
at 88/24 no problem at all.

At xx when i set dac is 96khz 24 bit, i got an error message that the dac supports only 88200 / 32.
when i set dac is 96 /32 and i press play it says that the device does not support exlusive mode.
I think that this is the "problem". For me, i guess the only solution is to resample without changing the bit depth at xx. Is that possible??

Ps: i run the dac test and it supports only 2|88200|16 ,no 24 no 32

[astacus21]

Ok finally after some testing i find out that my sound device supports only 16 bit in xx. The dac test says that in exlusive mode i can use only 16bit (in foobar i can play 24 bit. strange.). So when i try to upsample the xx output is 24 bit and i hear this distortion.
If i set the dac is 96/24 i get a message at playback that xxengine is stop working so i can only set 96/16. So at this mode the upsampling shouldn't be allowed, or you must fix it to play at 16 bit.
I also notice that if i set my dac is to 96/24 or 32, i cant select the 24 bit (untested) box.

[PeterSt]

I also notice that if i set my dac is to 96/24 or 32, i cant select the 24 bit (untested) box.

You are right. This is wrong in XX. On the other hand, I am 99.99 % sure that being able to set it to 24 bits won't change a thing. But :

when i set foobar resampler to 48khz i get 48 at the dac and sound its ok. if i change to 88/32 i get an error of unsupported format.
at 88/24 no problem at all.

... I hear you saying this too of course.

I will fix the error of not being able to set the DAC to 24 bits (in your given example) and then we must see further. But then again :

Ps: i run the dac test and it supports only 2|88200|16 ,no 24 no 32

This should tell me enough. Or IOW, when Foobar allows something in this area, it resamples first. Maybe you remember that at some stage I quit allowing resampling by the OS because it just would be for the worse. Thus, XX doesn't allow this now, while WASAPI actually does allow it.

But to be sure (for me) : do you have information that your soundcard/DAC supports 16 bits only ? because if so indeed, we just might wonder how Foobar seems to manage ... 

[astacus21]

My card in theory supports 24 bit. I can confirm that by using the test tones of the windows driver. it plays 44.1/48/96 at both 16 and 24 bit with directsound. i'm not sure if the /24 bit modes are supported with exclusive mode. XXHE says no.At the begining  i used foobar, to confirm that it plays, it works but now i'm not so sure if this is exclusive mode. On the other hand if i measure pci latency with dpc, while playing foobar at 48 or 88 either at 16 or 24 bit, i get very low values which shows (almost the some in both circumstancies) that it is exclusive mode.
with direct sound output plugin i get almost 3x latencies.

[PeterSt]

I have been pulling my hair what the difference could be, and I came to something ...

Because the whole Exclusive Mode thing is so buggy I applied quite some tweaks. One of them is contained in the 96.dat file which resides in the XXHighEnd folder. Now :

Keep your own 96.dat safe, and put the below one in your current XX folder. It "untweaks", and should normalize things far more to the Foobar situation.
Please note that the normal behaviour is that the nearest possible samplerate and bit depth is selected when the one needed is not there. It would be normal if Foobar does just that, and keep in mind that XX does *not* do that (because it would imply a conversion).

The first thing you might do is run the DAC Test and see whether there is any difference.

Do not forget for this XX version (0.9v-3) that you replaced this 96.dat file, because it won't allow you other things;
When it helps, I can make it dynamically.

Peter

[astacus21]

I replaced the 96.dat file and the results of dac test are the same.

Start Audio Device Analysis Exclusive Mode support
04E1FD0C

    Supported : 2|16|44100|176400|4
Not supported : 2|24|44100|264600|6
Not supported : 2|32|44100|352800|8
    Supported : 2|16|48000|192000|4
Not supported : 2|24|48000|288000|6
Not supported : 2|32|48000|384000|8
    Supported : 2|16|88200|352800|4
Not supported : 2|24|88200|529200|6
Not supported : 2|32|88200|705600|8
    Supported : 2|16|96000|384000|4
Not supported : 2|24|96000|576000|6
Not supported : 2|32|96000|768000|8
    Supported : 2|16|176400|705600|4
Not supported : 2|24|176400|1058400|6
Not supported : 2|32|176400|1411200|8
    Supported : 2|16|192000|768000|4
Not supported : 2|24|192000|1152000|6
Not supported : 2|32|192000|1536000|8
Not supported : 2|16|352800|1411200|4
Not supported : 2|24|352800|2116800|6
Not supported : 2|32|352800|2822400|8
Not supported : 2|16|384000|1536000|4
Not supported : 2|24|384000|2304000|6
Not supported : 2|32|384000|3072000|8

if i set dac is 96/24 (double & upsampling checked) and press the play button XXEngine3.exe hangs.

[PeterSt]

Thanks for trying (here it works with that "other" 96.dat at 16 as well as 24 bits).

There is something I don't understand;
It would be my idea that when the soundcard (towards XX) rejects the 24 bit modes, you would not be able to even start playing 88K2/24 (actually 88K2/32 which would happen at Doubling/Upsampling). However, you told (first post) that the 88K2 lamp on your processor lits, but the sound is distorted. This tells me that you must have selected a DAC Is setting with 16 bits. Can this be true ?

it works but now i'm not so sure if this is exclusive mode.

JFYI : I don't think it is reliable to check this by looking at the latencies. Best would be (99% sure) to try to switch of the sound by means of the loudspeaker icon in the taskbar tray (rightclick - Open Mixer) and the icons and sliders in there. Here this works okay (Foobar), but then I feed everything with data of which I know it can be handled without conversion.


PS: Don't forget to set back the original 96.dat.

[astacus21]

Peter you are right. I forgot to mention something that i did while trying to fix my problem.

I have already told you that with the latest version as it is, when i hit the play button (dac is 96/16 double & upsampling)
i get xxengine.exe stop working and no sound at all.

So i tried with an older file of xxengine.exe (version 09s0). This was the engine i used with my old soundcard and upsampling was ok.
With this version if i tick upsampling and double  and press play my dac locks at 44.1 which is propably normal because this old file dont have the code to cooperate with the latest version. here is the strange thing. if i tick AA also then i get 88.2 and the distorted output.
It was an expirement for me to try to solve the problem without bothering you. sorry that i forgot to mention that. I didn't remember it after so many changes i had made to make it play.


At foobar with 88.2 and 24 bit if i try to change the volume nothing happens. So it is exlusive mode. I dont know if the output is 24 bit or 16 and i cant think something to verify that.

[PeterSt]

Ok, so now I understand better.

I have already told you that with the latest version as it is, when i hit the play button (dac is 96/16 double & upsampling)
i get xxengine.exe stop working and no sound at all.

But this was with the before sent 96.dat, right ?
Or is it also with the one that normally belongs there ?


Please check whether your earlier post is correct, because that tells about xxengine3 stop working at 24 bits ... :

Ok finally after some testing i find out that my sound device supports only 16 bit in xx. The dac test says that in exlusive mode i can use only 16bit (in foobar i can play 24 bit. strange.). So when i try to upsample the xx output is 24 bit and i hear this distortion.
If i set the dac is 96/24 i get a message at playback that xxengine is stop working so i can only set 96/16. So at this mode the upsampling shouldn't be allowed, or you must fix it to play at 16 bit.
I also notice that if i set my dac is to 96/24 or 32, i cant select the 24 bit (untested) box.