In search for better audio-stream behavior on Vista PC using Latency Checker as

[superdac]

In search for better audio-stream behavior on Vista PC using Latency Checker as a monitor instrument. Long story.


Introduction:
The text below is a detailed compilation of my experiences and experiments in the last four months. I was trying to reach a clean uninterrupted audio signal from my Vista based laptop through USB out fed into a dedicated USB DAC Headphone Amp in combination with some very good Headphones. I experienced clicks, short dropouts, stuttering etc from the beginning (medium January  2008). All in all quite irritating but may be solvable. As a beginning I read some observations from others on this site and elsewhere with quite some consequences.

It is quite a long story, but may be that some of you can benefit from this kind of detail and/or give (me) additional suggestions/advises. I suspect my results till now are also valid for some other brands with Vista based pc’s (tried recently several in a store, fundamentally the kind of interruptions of the audio stream). This is not a story for readers with an attitude of ‘two  steps, fast at home’. Otherwise read on, I hope I can catch some of your attention.

My objective at the start of 2008 was to use a laptop in the living room, that functions properly with some easily available audio machines (WMP or Foobar2000). Although ‘functioning’ is something else as sounding in the best possible musical way! This laptop should give me no conflicts when multitasking with Word, Excel, Outlook and Explorer (or other programs) while listening to music. All program’s at the same time in use or ready in the background. Also, only when that combination functions properly it becomes possible, that my observations when using XXHighEnd for the first time will be in no way influenced by not detected and solved problems elsewhere. So this whole detailed undertake is also about preparation.

In advance, thanks for the strong advise from several of you, esp. PeterSt, to take the jump to install the Latency Checker. I have used this instrument in the past two months very intensively as a monitoring tool by placing the checker all working day at the right side of my 17 inch screen, sometimes the windows performance checker from the task management program was also included. That way I could (learn to) follow some things that were happening behind all the knobs, screen and casing and look for clues or causes for ‘clicks’ or ‘stuttering’, when audio was in use.

First of all I want also to state, that I am absolutely new to system maintenance and/or technical aspects with respect to computers. I only am used to common use of some program’s. For example, my son installed Vista (OEM) and some windows applications and did the initial settings. I really did not understand how to do such installation and/or was afraid to make mistakes.  After several months I learned already a lot (of words, easy for the ‘in crowd’, sort of slang). But the deeper functions and settings still are a complete mystery to me. At that level I need severe supervision because those possibilities goes totally over my head. I have not any ambition to dig into those deeper layers at all. My only objective is to extract the best possible audio from my laptop (=quality output from a ‘black box’).

Research faze I (many without use of the latency checker):

From medium January 2008 on I am using this HP laptop, advertised as ‘designed’ for Multi Media use. It is a dv9630ed, 2 Gb RAM, Intel duo core 1,5 GHz, 120 GB Hdisk, Nvidia 8400 M GS/ 128 MB, OEM Vista Premium, separately Office 2003 installed. I have waited a long time before I took the decision to buy this one, because I wanted to be sure that my laptop could work with Vista and would deliver a ‘very good’ audio signal. Gaming and/or video/dvd were not the goal, may be in use a couple of times a year or so. No, the machine must on a daily basis do some (simple) multitasks while also using it as a cd player. At that time I was not yet familiar with the possibilities of a dedicated off board extra hard disk (not that that could solve my problem), let alone that I had discovered that there was something in the pipeline like XXHighEnd. Waiting time was possible because I had a good Dell desktop pc with XP Pro (from 2003) that produced a good audio signal (with WMP and Foobar2000) into my USB-dac headphone amp. This setup has functioned for several years in a for me very satisfactory way. And this setup still is ok (only it should run a little quieter, but that is a whole other story; decoupling it from the desk helped a lot). Never experienced any dropouts, clicks or stuttering in audio on that XP machine.

In the beginning I only used the Vista based laptop stand alone quite intensively for mail, internet, excel, word, all at the same time available and used fast after each other. It all functioned perfect from the beginning, conform my expectations. Not for any moment I missed XP Pro. This machine with Vista ‘looks en feels’ good for me and is in my living room a really good replacement for the desktop in the hobby room. Until today this Vista based machine never crashed or needed a restart after some user actions or misbehaving programs. This setup could start a little faster and I wanted to see the waiting symbol not so many times.

Functioning good for those daily tasks it was time to get also some audio pleasure out of it. After some problems with the settings in WMP/Foobar and with the help from some advisors I get a good  ‘signal’ through USB-out (WMP/Foobar set for 16 bit/44.1, buffers at max, internal volumes at max, volume of the head amp in use, all DSP disabled). I started with a simple audio test setup (low-fi phone) just to getting to know the complete setup/chain better and to work with a low risk profile in the beginning (I did not want to blow up my better headphones). After some time I began to hear sometimes cracks, very small dropouts, stuttering or noises like that. At fully irregular moments and irregular duration in between. Irritating and quite disappointing for a quality laptop. Where to look? A process of elimination started, leaving all possibilities open.

At first I thought that it could be caused by some of my cd’s in combination with some wrong Vista or WMP or Foobar settings. May be also hearing recording artifacts (although I never heard those before on other audio chains). Questions asked all around (HP service, Retailer service, several experienced system maintainers). Looking into WWW (lots of hits for this kind of symptoms, Googled for word combinations: latency or vista problems, stuttering audio, clicks, pops, dropouts etc etc, looked also at sites specialized in Gaming or Pro Audio). Mailed to the factory of the headphone amp about possible compatibility issues (none found as expected). All agree that this kind of problems with Vista exists, even Steve Ballmer has admitted that audio on Vista has still its problems (see interview in The Graduate, Jan 2008…….., no one ever heard from him after that about that issue…, make your own conclusions). May be ‘I have to live with it, for the time being’. Many, many times Vista is bashed totally and many criticizers ‘upgraded’ to XP or leave the MS scene completely. This all can not be fully true and fair. Or?

Nobody seemed to have real solutions either, for me only some suggestions into the wild (other priority settings, Bios interventions, registry settings etc). Interesting observation is that the BIOS settings for my laptop has changed from the installed version F.33 to the latest one F.53 ( Quite some changes within 4 months! Are ‘they’ really working on the problems for us in the background?). Those above mentioned technical interventions are for me totally out of the question to try. Most of them are quite over my head to understand. Many advised to install XP Pro again (in that case nobody have to think about some more complicated things anymore; quite lazy I think, but it still is a very economical move from a ‘non user’ point of view, a general computer company culture problem, may be?). 

More or less by accident I discovered the XXHighEnd site. Reading most posts gaves me some further motivation and hope for solutions, so I simply had to look into it myself. The only risk could be that I also could not find any solution, my time is for free thus no risk at all. The most striking on XXHE for me was, that Vista with engine#3 was the preferred combination. Developer and beta-testers were all using Vista machines with no problems of the kind, that I had encountered (or they had already solved them but their solutions were hidden for me in all the posts). Also they were/are using machines, that mostly had nearly similar specs as my laptop.

So my assumption number one was that my laptop in the end must be capable of an uninterrupted data stream for audio! But where to look  for an amateur within this bag of hay. Much because of my lack of knowledge it has taken quite some time to investigate things and find some solutions. May be some silly and weird things were tried also, it is up to you to judge.

What was ‘not’ the cause of the symptoms of stuttering in audio in my case:
First a list of what in my view and judged at this moment were not the cause of the symptoms and (as a consequence) for the cause for my dissatisfaction (based on many hours of trying/thinking/reading/retrying/asking questions etc. Oh, all done before installation of Vista service pack 1, some later observations were done with the Latency Checker in use on screen constantly while working with some program(-combinations):
-   tried many different cd’s (originals, ripped, downloaded one’s), also used some HP delivered tracks from laptop hard disk; they all produce the same irregular symptoms, even within the process of using the same cd, also some of the not so newer ones with scratches or some fingerprints on them. Clicks/stuttering appears in audio and on the Latency Checker red bars all around; some bars stand alone, some besides each other, sometimes nearly all yellow bars, there was for me simply no ‘system’  in their appearance to detect. No screen prints needed here, all looked alike those that already are published on this site and elsewhere (keep this in mind when reading further).
-   tried Foobar2000 and WMP with different (buffer/volume/DSP off etc) settings, both gave the same symptoms on the Latency Checker and on the headphone.
-   disengaged the head amp and USB cable and used only laptop headphone out, no real changes, same stuttering on irregular moments, only sometimes more hidden and less revealing than the offboard amp (which is quite logical because of the quality difference in transparency). Also heard the stuttering through the on-board speakers, but those are cr*p anyway, but it shows that the problem was upstream in my view (also not USB 2.0 related!).
-   looked into list of MS updates on the laptop, all looks fine. Automatic update function for Windows is used.
-   looked at list of HP driver updates for this type of laptop, nothing special at that moment. No need to update something was reported from the HP update function.
-   looked into the performance checker on the laptop, to see that there are all the needed specs for using Vista inclusive Aero. All found OK.
-   tried out several program combinations during the day, irregular symptoms stayed, no clues at that moment.
-   tried out the remote control of our TV, my wife was watching TV while I get some red bars in latency checker. No relation found.
-   No spikes either when washing machines and refrigerators were busy.
-   disabled the fax/modem, no change. Tried several other device disablements, also no change detected by me at that moment.
-   observed the influence of GSM telephones in the near distance (in house and outside). No symptoms of relationship. No Blue Ray things were put at working    anyway (when you  use those they could attribute to problems, I read at several sites).
-   tried wireless ADSL and no mail or internet connection at all; also tried cable connection. No difference with respect to the unwanted symptoms that I could detect.
-   Looked frequently into CPU behavior and RAM use, no problems there as far as I am a trustworthy observer, always much headroom available; sometimes some really higher CPU use, but no relation to clicks or stuttering.
-   Tried different settings of user interface in Vista, no instant effect on symptoms. Using now ‘windows classic’ theme. Plan to go back to full Aero.
-   Tried different power outlets in the house, also different power blocks of known audio quality, again no clues. Tried also battery only use.
-   Tried out Ready Boost. Unexpected, it gives slightly better audio performance for me esp. at the frequency extremes, little more transparent and controlled sound field, also better decay and ‘overtones’ (as such interesting,  needs further investigation for real audio value; may be Ready Boost puts less strain on hard disk activity and/or (mini) power supply rails with some slight effects in the functioning of audio, who knows? May be I am betraying myself after a good night sleep…we see). But all in all same irregular stuttering symptoms.
-   Another symptom with Ready Boost was that in the first minutes when injected the extra memory there were on Latency Checker only yellow bars at steady 1000 ms high, after that the processes stabilizes to the same 50/50 green/yellow pattern as without ready boost disk (used full 2Gb from Corsair Flash Voyager, usb disk type theoretically up to the task, may be I should also test a 16 Gb disk also, something for the future; in combination with upgrading from 2 gb Ram to 3 or 4; although no relation found yet for stuttering problem, so I am not ready for financial injection into a not clear problem, I am not going to throw money into a dark cage but ‘bigger is always better’ is tempting…).
-   And some more observations…………..but it all feels more and more like a great impasse around using Vista with the XP upgrade dilemma at the horizon.

How to proceed even more systematically because I want really to get rid off those clicks and stuttering?

So, I had to bring some heavier guns into use. I decided to do it more systematically and more fundamental (from my point of view that is). So at last I tried again the Latency Checker (studied the description again, before I did not understand it really for its full potential) and also put those performance clocks in the sidebar at the right (later I used the other task management possibilities also). In that way I could follow some digital events more real time in the hope I get some clue or see some pattern where to look further into (with my little knowledge base that is!).

What I was observing was: there was/is always a relation between the rather frequent, but not constant red bars and the clicking/stuttering heard trough the music. I never found any stuttering, clicks or short dropouts without a red bar on the Latency Checker. All those red bars appear at irregular moments and with different maxima, ranging from 2500ms to several hundred thousands ms! I could not (yet) put my finger on something repeatable other than stuttering = red bar. Green and/or Yellow bars could never be related to any stuttering. OK, that’s also the wisdom/message of the Latency Checker itself, but I want to find out the pattern or cause for the irritating ones and there the Checker is lacking real information.

The symptoms gave me the (analogue) feeling or association, that quite some internal computer processes at the same time were struggling for priority and were in some cases tumbling over each other resulting in hidden problems that causes identifiable disruptions in the audio data stream. There were some 55 processes running on my ‘total’ system , I have seen, and as far as my knowledge goes that is nothing spectacular within the context of Vista.
OK, such a observation or internal status is probably immediately obvious for any programmer, experienced system tester or technical expert and they can put earlier than me a finger on that kind of processing things (I imagine), but within all information I found on the Internet I could not find some simple practical steps to be executed by ‘simple’ end-users to diagnose and solve the problem. Most end users also have no access to sophisticated system maintenance utilities or test facilities. Only you can hire some expert who will try to solve problems, but they give you after that a big bill that spoils all the pleasure. So I was relatively on my own, I have already invested my money in the laptop itself.

see next post for continuing story

[superdac]

Faze II: Process and results of further investigations to find paterns:

During several weeks that followed, I studied much information found on the computer itself (help function etc), found much on the net and searched on basis of advises from some experts. The following actions were done on basis of that information, while looking if there was something to discover by myself  with the Latency Checker now constantly visible on screen:
-   my son did some extra installation checkups, all seems all right. We tried to disable some applications but could not find one that make the red bars to disappear or cleared up some pattern.
-   Consulted HP and retailer again. Laptop technically functions according to specs. No usable extra advise at that moment. I think may be much so because I could not make things really clear (= rock solid) and visually repeatable (typically communication between amateur and expert). They advised to use some other drivers, no success. Sometimes they try to put things on third parties responsibility (always the same trick I have read elsewhere), but I could contradict that.
-   ‘knowing’ that all drivers and system updates were ok (all automated you know!), SP1 was downloaded and installed. All things functioning still ok after that, quite a relieve. Start up laptop was really fast now,  feels as ‘faster than my XP’!! In reality, they perform now exactly the same from pushing the power button to start using Google, around 100 seconds needed before I can go to the first site. Before SP1 I could easily take the time for bringing in some coffee. So far -  for me - one internet hyped myth around Vista is broken to pieces. This performance is fast enough for me and my wife.
-   After SP1 was installed it ‘looked’ also to me that the red bars and stuttering were less frequent than before……..but still intruding into the music. No clue about a specific cause for that, still no repeatable patterns for me to detect, but they must be there.
-   After several hours monitoring I decided to check all the drivers again and for the case of elimination not trust the automatic updates. Just as an assumption that needed checking, I thought. Right I was: Nvidia 8400 GS needed an update,  so was Realtek HD audio and some other non MS drivers. No spectacular changes were seen afterwards, but also nothing was worse than before!
-   Because I could not fully trust the update info that was registered already in the computer (different version numbers and dates for example, manufacturers use sometimes their own codes and legenda’s! How about user friendliness and comparable data!?). I decided to give all the drivers an update again through ‘update system driver’ (a function discovered under the hood in the laptop), I have administrator rights I had also discovered. Again some drivers were – fully unexpected for me  - reinstalled with a newer one (I hope!). I also used some freeware to check for latest driver versions, I found differences. So I think this update business is rather inconsistent from a consumer point of view, certainly it makes you uncertain . In the end I did not use those freeware update suggestions.
-   Now I was investing so many hours anyway, I decided to (re-) install all the drivers that were mentioned on the HP site for my type of laptop, although HP automatic driver update function was always on. I divided the updates into 4 fazes, so I had some check in between and that I could go back (did this for the first time, so it was a great but a little nervous learning process; no, I do not need a system maintainer for this kind of thing anymore). This was a good final and reassuring check, because most of the time I get the signal,  that I already had ‘the best driver available installed’, but some drivers (yes, also a BIOS update!) were updated again! May be with a newer one. Lesson: double check when you ‘think’ you have the ‘latest’ driver!
-   In the evening of that day I tried my music set-up again in combination with some daily used MS program’s. I ‘thought’ I was seeing again less red bars and for sure sometimes during an hour no red bar at all, so no stuttering during that hour. I thought that all the time-investment in rounds for the driver updates was beneficial. With that result I could live. So I went very content to bed.
-   Next day tried again, first hour no problem at all (no idea afterward of what I was doing on the computer), after that the same less frequently symptoms as usual. How to proceed now? I had no real clue.
-   I decided to monitor again all the events seen on the Latency Checker. After a couple of days (!) I observed some patterns in my notes. There were three distinct symptoms, that frequently appear: some single and standalone red bars around 2500/3500ms (say type I), some around 30-90.000ms (type II) and some vey well above that sometimes maxima even more than a half of a million (type III).
-   At some moment when I was busy on Internet with Internet Explorer it ‘suddenly’ became evident that when I scroll intensively with the touchpad the type II red bars immediately arouse. To some extend this was also the case in Outlook and Excell. In between, I had discovered also that WMP and Foobar or the dvd/cd drive were not involved (only present opinion). At that moment I did not use audio, only the Latency Checker was on screen, so audio only suffered from the consequences of what was provoked elsewhere.
-   To make a rather long trial/error based story short: I discovered, that in relation to heavy scrolling in the sidebars of some programs (IE 7 the most obvious) I could provoke every time and easy that second type of red bars. No matter if I use wheel or touchpad buttons. After that I saw/discovered that there were always 3 of such type II high bars behind each other and with a systematic interval of 30 seconds. Only again no ‘system’ in the maximum height of the red bars. Each of those three bars provoked always systematically clicks and/or stuttering in the audio chain.
-   Both other types of bars (I and III) have no relation yet to something I can detect from an action from me as the user (may be there are some suggestions to further investigate this). The lower red bar (type I) gives most of the times no stuttering or crack in audio. The very high bar is very seldom there and was only seen a couple of times when I left the laptop for an hour or more. It was never seen during working on the laptop. So both types are in practice not significant anymore for me. But the other one’s are too frequent and irritating to ignore.
-   After this I consult HP Service again. This time with a good and repeatable symptom description and with some verbal luggage to discuss things on a more equal level. They take over the screen on my request and I could repeat the symptoms for themselves instantly (seeing is believing). They also could that provoke themselves. After disabling the UAC (‘gebruikers account beheer’ in Dutch, not needed, I have no network and there is only one user account), side bar already closed, disable some kind of mouse activity and disabling all non MS programs (except Firewall Mcfee and Synaptics for touchpad/mouse; uninstalled Norton in the first place) it looks that the problem provoked by scrolling was under control. Those functions/programs – so I was told – put a rather high burden on the resources of every Vista based computer (could be, I do not know, but I really have ‘seen’ some progress in problem solving during the consult). Customer satisfied.
-   But regrettably, later that day after some additional torturing with the mouse and touchpad that particular (type II) symptom was there again (within the IE 7 context). Only when I was working at slowly to normal handling speeds all things functions all right without red bars (so the HP interventions had some impact, I must admit).
-   Now, only when using Internet Explorer 7 did the symptoms occur on provocation! Other programs gives no symptoms anymore, I could not provoke the symptoms there (they were there before). Tried that also on another laptop with similar specs (AMD 64 with only higher RAM) in the store, same red bar symptoms working with IE7 only in slightly other height pattern. The audio stuttering was the same. On their wireless net I provoked the same type II symptoms with my own laptop (again only when using IE 7), with exactly the same three-time intervals of 30 seconds and irregular heights in the red bars.
-   I looked further into IE 7. Extensive searching on the internet led me to an advise to install/use Firefox 2 as a browser (afterwards I heard more users repeat that advise). After doing that I was only with very unrealistic and absolutely extreme scrolling able to provoke (only sometimes) the same sequences in the red bars of type II.
-   This looks like ‘problem solved’. There is another version of Firefox on its way with even better results. But for now it is version 2 from Firefox that I am going to use. IE 7 only on occasions that are unavoidable.

Within the last 50 hours of usage of the whole chain (so audio included) I did not heard any stuttering, clicks etc again on my headphones (when I use the mouse or touchpad in a ‘normal’ way no type II symptoms were found). At this moment, when my program-combination is used, the Latency Checker gives for hours and hours a rather continuous score/mix of green and yellow bars. It cruises between 200 ms and 1000 ms, with some peaks to below or above. Still too high, but ……Yellow/green is generally divided by around 50/50. Sometimes there are periods of around half a minute with XP like performance (all little green bars, no real clue found yet, but there is hope……..), sometimes the yellow bars go to around 2000 ms, still no stuttering to be heard. There are only sometimes little ‘ticks’ of low amplitude, also irregular hearable, absolutely no clue for cause, nothing to see on the Latency Checker. But those little ‘ticks’ are not annoying at all, they do not intrude into the music enjoyment (resembles LP static noise from the old days). This all is ok for me, the annoying one’s are tamed, that was the goal.

Some afterthoughts:
The latest attempts are to get even better Vista audio performance, because in my view there is still some ‘dirt’ under the bonnet. I have run the Latency Checker again on my XP computer (Pentium 4, 2,8 Ghz, 512 Mb Ram, no tuning done at all in the last couple of years and absolutely some outdated drivers running, so a quite dirty pc). What I see is a steady green with very low bars, all around 100 ms,  much bars below that, maxima never goes over 350ms. No changes what program combination is in use. The Latency Checker gives splendid low green bars. No wonder my audio setup has never gave any stuttering problems using that machine.

So I think that Vista based systems need still some serious tuning, initiated by the producers and their sellers. The word ‘system’ is used here by me in a ecologically way. I am really not interested in OS performance as such, I want a really good performing system outcome, so hard and software needs to be presented to me as a whole with no interaction problems at all. 

Looked the last time again into Gaming sites and some Pro Audio. There are still much latency problems observed. Because I did not wanted to stop here, I contacted again HP customer service. The status is, that they will look into the problem again. I have no complaints about their intentions to solve the problem and I think other resellers/retailers have the same problems but are hiding them (see experiences/reviews on the net with brands like Asus, Dell etc). I have a ‘case number’ so I will follow them critically without every time telling the same story to another service deck person. I think that all Vista based systems should at least run with as low latency as XP (when principally possible, because there seems to be some basic technically differences, I read about).  May be I am asking too much too early, but without asking/pushing by customers there will be no progress (computer business = like ‘water always seeks the lowest point’; do not give them the chance!). I will let you know the results for my ‘case-number’.

Now, my personal problems with uninterrupted audio signal seems to be solved I can go on within my own configuration. May be some extra cleaning up of my laptop and throwing away not used programs (come within the OEM version of Vista)  can free some extra resources under the bonnet for an even smoother functioning of this laptop. May be also ‘a clean install of vista’ is something to be done in my case. I know there is a legal way to get a clean version extracted from a OEM version (look at Notebookreview for a HP based one, it is said on that site that the procedure can also be used for other brands). But that is something to be done by an system expert for me and is not urgent at this moment.

For the time being I expect, that my laptop is able to use XXHighEnd to its full potential. So lets more music comes in than I already enjoy. Within reasonable time I am going to ask my son to help me with the correct installation of  the trial version of XXHighEnd. Help is needed, just to be sure that I put my fingers on the correct buttons. I will look again into the sticky files for how to start etc. Looking forward to hearing the results in my audio rig. I will feed XXHighEnd with the same music, that I use in my other audio test situations, so I can compare some of my impressions. I will post my findings, observations and judgments.

With respect to the Latency Checker I can only say that it was of great help for me to get more control over ‘the bag with hay’.

Only, the L-checker advise to check all your drivers and/or malfunctioning program’s was not enough for the full solution, in my case. It seems more complicated. My computer reported at first glance systematically, that all programs were functioning correct, that there were no conflicts between them and that all the drivers were updated to the correct version. But, I have learned now that a thorough time consuming check up can help to lower the staple of interrelated problems even more. In my case the symptoms were diminished to three types. With a little help of ‘lucky chance’ I could detect a relation between scrolling and the most irritating type of symptoms.

I do not believe I would ever detected this when I did not were in the position to invest many, many free hours now I am retired. Never too old to learn something about some hidden digital things.

Some general guidelines for problem solving (from my standpoint that is and please feel free to comment, I am only an amateur on this subject):

-   Use the latency checker for quite some time on the screen during working and/or listening to discover some real time patterns. Take notes and try to relate eventual observed patterns to user actions in relation to specific program(-combinations). May be there are also computer type/configuration/brand specific symptoms.
-   Do not seek a solution in putting in more RAM or better motherboards, higher spec video/audio cards etc. at this moment. When you have a quite recent and competent configuration this seems not the first option. At this moment there is no obvious repeatable connection to those kind of technical updating (risky statement, but some gamers have already tried that path, with ‘throwing money at nothing’ and to find no solution for their actual latency problems during gaming on a Vista based machine).
-   Install SP1 as soon as possible, it helps also to get a more clear view on the remaining problems with data interruptions that affects audio (it takes also away some bad behavior in the sphere of latency, although it is not clear where and why).
-   Double check all driver updates, do not trust automatic updates on forehand.
-   Try to experiment with some user interface settings available in Vista. Seek for some lower burden settings without loosing all the look and feels of Vista.
-   Accept only for the time being that Vista has still (latency) problems (in the beginning XP was also not optimal, I read everywhere), but for audio mostly the latency problems (that is also the stuttering/dropouts) can be put out of the way for uninterrupted real time data streaming for audio (for some kind of heavy gaming or quality recording it is a whole other story, so I read on specific sites; but what in the future is ‘good’ for them is always good for audio, so look out for progress in those areas).
-   Try to experiment with disabling devices to find a cause for the red bars or to minimize the burden on the system. When drivers are OK than you can not expect too much from this path.
-   Disable user account control when not strictly needed.
-   Get real expert help to supervise you with the more deeper changes in your system (think of clean install extracted from OEM Vista version, Bios settings, Registry, PCI optimization etc. are often named on different sites/blogs as contributing to better latency performance).
-   Go also for putting pressure on customer service (we all can find them when our cars are subject of critics; why not when sub optimal computer-systems are delivered,  hard/software distributors have to fight each other in the interest of their customers, not the other way around).
-   Only for audio: accept for this moment a sub optimal latency performance in a Vista based computers as soon as there are no stuttering or clicks to heard in the music. With some mix of green/yellow bars you can already enjoy music without interruptions.
-   To be expanded…………
 

When some of you have some further practical suggestions for me to get an even better functioning laptop for audio or to proceed with this investigation I would be glad to hear them from you.

I hope I did not put too much a burden on you with so much detailed prose in a world that is reduced to zero’s and one’s. Success with your own search for uninterrupted audio data stream.

Pieter.




Update from last week:
In consultation with HP service my son has on my request executed a ‘system restore’ to the situation at the moment of purchase of my laptop. Full backup is arranged, so I can go back to above mentioned more or less click/stutter free situation. Goal of this move is to explore basic technical problems or conflicts in the hardware on this laptop that are subject to guarantee issues. Well we see. Till this moment I am really content with their intentions for customer service, I hope they deliver the goods….. Since this system restore and (no real interventions in the original factory set up!) all the clicks and stuttering symptoms are back in a more severe way, quantitatively just like at the start of this investigation. I am very curious about the things that are going to happen. I will inform you all of the progress or the lack of it.

[PeterSt]

Dear Pieter,

In case someone else is not going to say it, I will do it :

wow Wow WOW !

If you don't mind ... reading your posts is very intreguing to me and IMHO in better english than anyone I know.
For me it could even have been three times as long, and I would have read it al through in one go. It must have taken you a day at least to put this all into these clear wordings. Hats off, really !!

Personally I can't add much to it, except for : never use a laptop. These girls have been fed too dedicatedly with their own software, and most probably you can't get rid of the anomalies ever (they just "need" them).
But if you ever want to try something again, my horses would be set on the nVidia (card ??). Most probably you can't disable it (hence replace it with a more lean card), so that would be a dead end anyway.


I can only congratulate with your persistency, you apparently being someone without the actual knowlegde, and if I may say so, of a somewhat older age as well (ok, you could have been working at Shell and abroad all the time, giving you "tropical years" or IOW half of your working life is enough to receive retired status ).

If - as in your case - time is NOT money, well, I guess one could spend the time in getting such an awful machine to do what you want, or better : what one should expect from it. But otherwise ...
Either way, thank you very much for a great contribution some of us are hunting for. In this context, please do not make the mistake that when your dropouts have vanished you should be satisfied; it has by now been proven sufficiently enough that the less the OS is performing, the better the SQ becomes. I know, this is easily said from someone who indeed can do what he wants with the PC, without the sound being interrupted (which I think is the case with 99% of people), but I only want to indicate never to be satisfied with just no clicks and all being there. This, of course, starts counting in when you indeed use XX for playback, and have experienced the benefits of PC playback with respect to SQ.
I know, this doesn't sound much respectful according to all your hard work. On the other hand, this remark is in the context of my own Vista PC showing yellow bars only (where they sure should show green), and your posts just tempt me even more to make them green.

Lastly for now, please give ChrisV the credits for the Latency Checker. It is he who brought it up, and it is he who has the problems you experience(d) as the only one I know of. I just passed the word.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them and never underestimate your own knowlegde;
I can only hope to have the answers, or that others have them for that matter.

Peter

[superdac]

Hi Peter,

Indeed, first of all, ChrisV must get the credits primarily. He is the starter of a process that will be benificial for many with the same problems (although some may be not aware of them by now). Ok, I give those credits wholehartedly because it is his advise that has pointed me to some kind of accepable solution. Not yet a full solution, but one I can live with.

Thanks also for your attention to my long story (took me a little more than one day to give it this quality). And thanks for the compliments for my clear use of english language. A 35 year reading history about audio subjects (much HiFiNews etc) gives some background for handling words. Also my real 37 year long working career, where I had at low and high levels of organisation much to do with close reading and critical writing, left some traces. Never been in tropical aerea's, only worked in great service institutions in Holland. Last 10 years were 'tropical years in a rather cold and wet country', busy as a projectmanager in changing buisiness processes and building up content strategies for information management (with computer contribution). At nearly 62 - as a 'lucky victim' of a reorganisation - I can use all this expierence in another way during (pre-)retirment. It is very handy in a context of personal e-learning while using internet.

You can imagine that I have some comments on your reply. So here we go:

That is quite a clear and bold statement: do not use a laptop for audio pc. That will narrow the amount of users of XXhighend I expect significantly. For my own 'peace of mind' I translate your statement to: laptops will always be a compromise. That's indeed because there is too much into one package, I think, they are simply no desktop exchangers. Although I have payed for a full blown media 'thing', I have to dismantle the burden on the operatingsystem significantly to get an acceptable audio performance. With WMP/Foobar I have reached results I can live with when only working on several programms while listening to music. Every now and then a click or stutter - now I know when they happen and that they are action-related - is for the moment acceptable. For a dedicated music pc for my little music room it is not the solution. At that place I am getting in the future an appropriate desktop PC that is up to the task.

One question: When WMP/Foobar functions nearly correct - so no apparently identifiable interuptions in the audiostream, although we know they are still there under the bonnet to some extend - can I expect that XXhighend will function accordingly? The proof is naturaly in the pudding, but I want to build up an hypothesis first that can be tested. I only ask you for your (not tested) opinion or expectation.

I will next week test in a local store a full blown gaming desktop pc for latency problems with the Checker. When that Vista PC gives no latency problems than I have again a clue and a proof of your statement for not using a laptop when you have really high expectations. I will use my 'normal' test sequences with the same usb-amb and phone, so the results will be comparable with the results on a laptop (I assume).  When I get the chance I will also try out XXhighend in download version. I really think that a off the shelf desktop computer must be up to the audio pc task with Vista, not many people are in the situation to manipulate setting afterwards in an effective way. Looks fun to me to see what happens during the test. Will let you know the results.

Another question from a really uninformed standpoint: is it so that XXhighend uses the video card (Nvidia 8400 M gs, 128mb) or the Realtek audio card or neither of both when you uses USB out? In other words: how dependant are they from eachother? Or can Video Card and Audio Card disrupt audiostream also when they are not directly used?

As far as my information goes this laptop has a integrated video/audio card fixated with the motherboard, so a solution for another card for those functions is not likely to find. It is also the question if there is a possibility to intervene in some factory settings. Or is there something I overlooked?

The following part of your text it not yet quite clear to me: "Either way, thank you very much for a great contribution some of us are hunting for. In this context, please do not make the mistake that when your dropouts have vanished you should be satisfied; it has by now been proven sufficiently enough that the less the OS is performing, the better the SQ becomes. I know, this is easily said from someone who indeed can do what he wants with the PC, without the sound being interrupted (which I think is the case with 99% of people), but I only want to indicate never to be satisfied with just no clicks and all being there. This, of course, starts counting in when you indeed use XX for playback, and have experienced the benefits of PC playback with respect to SQ."

Are you saying that 99% of people has problems with interruptions or the otherway around..............?

The other parts of this text I can fully understand: never accept an inappropriate functioning computerconcept, also when you can not get full grip on the matter at that same moment. I suggest that every customer for a new computer simply takes the Latency Checker and use it real time in the store before purchase (every store has internet, so it is a quite easy and revealing test). Every computer that is not flawlessly functioning when you are planning to use it for pc audio should not been ordered. That gives any consumer some power to put on retailers and their networks (with buying an automobile we all know how to handle shortcomings! And you never buy an automobile whithout a trial ride or?).

"I know, this doesn't sound much respectful according to all your hard work. On the other hand, this remark is in the context of my own Vista PC showing yellow bars only (where they sure should show green), and your posts just tempt me even more to make them green."

Good attitude, may be there will be some spinn off for other computerconfigurations than yours. When you succeed you have achieved also solutions for XXhighend-users, Gamers and Pro Audio Proffesionals.

Pieter.

[PeterSt]

Hi Pieter,

That is quite a clear and bold statement: do not use a laptop for audio pc.

Take as the example the video "card" which is (to me) suspectible. Nothing you can do ...
Also, besides the "being packed with" most often the OS is adjusted to suit the manufacturers needs, and a more lean OS wouldn't even install.
And besides these more obvious stuff, I didn't start to mention the problems you will run into when you need many TB's of disks ...

With desktops too, you must be very careful. They too often come with dedicated stuff you can't get rid of. On this matter, I always used Compaq, and since it doesn't exist anymore, HP.

One question: When WMP/Foobar functions nearly correct - so no apparently identifiable interuptions in the audiostream, although we know they are still there under the bonnet to some extend - can I expect that XXhighend will function accordingly?

This is difficult to say;
On one hand XXHighEnd is the most lean of them all (read : uses the least resources of them all, and similar can only be reached by Linux based programs), so when it comes down to cpu useage you can expect the least problems. But as the topic 0.9u-12 --> Hiccups and Clicks shows, problems need not to be about cpu useage. It is merely about interrupts out of your control.
On an another hand, XX works very differently from the others (no Direct Sound, no Kernel Streaming, no ASIO) which make things difficult to compare.
One thing I know : when I play audio, there is nothing *I* can do to interrupt that even the slightest. But then again, the topic I referred to shows that I too can encounter hiccups which by themselves can be explained, but should not be there anyway.
Lastly on this matter, please note that effectively nobody has the real problems you described, with ChrisV as the exception, although right now I think he too found a setting that prohibits the "glicthes". I don't think this can be said from a Foobar setup (not sure though).

it has by now been proven sufficiently enough that the less the OS is performing, the better the SQ becomes. I know, this is easily said from someone who indeed can do what he wants with the PC, without the sound being interrupted (which I think is the case with 99% of people)

With this I meant :
a. performing = doing things by itself (and I did not mean this in the context of lousy performance);
b. that 99% of people (mathematically 99,95 or so) do not have problems with XX.

Ad b.
This has the context of most of the people being able to, say, overdrive for better SQ (this is about being able to run with Q1 at -2), bu many not being able to do that. Since the lower Q1 gives better sound generally (but not necessarily), here too I emphasize on the system being capable of that (which is unrelated to glitchless playback or red bars by itself).
If you'd follow the topics about people suddenly not being able anymore to use the lower Q1 settings, you'd see that this is actually my fault, although I'm not aware of the changes. This implies that changes influence microscopically *and* how much all is driven to the limit (in order to reach the best SQ).


Btw, when the nVidia indeed may cause problems, try to find the (by now 3 years old) 81.98 display driver version. For sure that won't allow current technical capabilities (like h.264 or HDMI output), but this one is proven to let VIDEO work flawlessly. And since video is controlled by audio ...
If that version won't work under Vista ... bad luck.

When you use USB toward the audio device (DAC) neither the Realtec or the nVidia will be used. But it's not about that. It is about that those things may generate (or need) interrupts. They just influence. And for sure *that* may cause anomalies when the priorities for that are set wrongly (by the driver !). This is about the ("PCI Latency") tool that works under XP nut not under Vista, allowing you to change those priorities (or better : the length a PCI devices may occupy the system(s bus). Maybe by now such a tool exists for Vista ? I didn't look for many months.

Peter



 

[brentw]

Hi Superdac,

I know your pain with pops and clicks in the sound while using a laptop. I generally use a desktop machine with a USB DAC. I make these DACs as a hobby and this has been going on 3 years now. With desktop machine I have almost zero pops and clicks.

I decided to buy a laptop so that I could demo my DACs to folks without having to drag too much gear with me. This predates Vista. I installed Windows XP on the laptop and Foobar with ASIO. Pops and clicks were very bad. I could reproduce pops and clicks by playing a song. 30 seconds into the song a pop or clicks would happen with more to follow.

Being a computer geek I set out to fix this little problem. 3 days of nothing but working on the problem, tons of Google searches, 10 reinstalls of Windows XP... I gave up and installed Windows 2003 Server (the same OS I was using at the time on the desktop computer) the clicks and pops are gone.

The old laptop does not have enough RAM to run Vista and the RAM upgrade is too costly for this machine.
So now I am looking for a new one, I may try Asus EEE (almost silent, but not going to be easy)

I have also run into pops and clicks on desktop machines.

I know what the problem is in both cases. The problem is software drivers for the low level parts of the computer, like the file system, video card and so on. A poorly written driver can cause the pops and clicks. On a laptop computer the hardware is less common then a desktop machine. For desktop machines there are usually more then one version of a driver produced for it and you can try the different drivers to see if you can find one that solves the problem. Or it may be a combination of drivers that causes the problem and again you may not be able to get away from the problem.

In my case I used a different OS on the laptop and it fixed my problem. The reason this worked is that the drivers that were in that OS were different and probably better.

My recommendation to you would be to start a new thread asking the public what laptop they use with no pops and clicks. If you find one then sell yours and buy the same laptop or buy a desktop that is known to work.

Cheers,
Brent

[Calibrator]

Thought I would revisit this DPC Latency checker again yesterday in an attempt to understand how my dual boot HTPC is currently performing, and it raised a question that has me baffled at the moment.

When I boot into my WinXP environment and run the DPC Latency app, I see a consistent 10-12 uSec which I reckon is rather good. Under Vista however I see an almost consistent 1000uSec at idle. The part I can't get my head around is that when XXHE is asked to play, the initial period when its converting the FLAC's etc to temporary WAV's and storing them in the XXHE folder, sees the latency DROP to around 75-100uSec during that phase. When the GUI disappears completely the latency goes back up to 1000uSec or thereabouts and stays there while the album plays.

I could imagine Vista being a bit more bloated than XP, but why would the latency drop when it's actually doing more work.

Any ideas anyone?

How do other folks systems perform under Vista as a comparison?

I thought I had my system stripped pretty bare now!

Cheers,

Russ

[PeterSt]

Yes, Dave / SeVeReD reported similar. He has arranged for it even better though !
When he starts playback, his low figures drop to even more low. This is exaplainable I think.

However, what you know say is another one : during conversion it drops ...
I did not know that.

On a side note : my Vista system too, shows the 1000us always (I thought it was unique ). I must check the conversion period ...

In the end it will tell us that the method used may say something, but is not reliable. It will depend on measuring its own received responses to interrupts, and I am sure stuff can speed that up. This is why the report of Dave didn't puzzle me much. Now it is the question : what is it that may speed up interrupt responses at the conversion ?

One thing I know (and it may be very important to myself) : there is no way I can make a plain copy of a file myself as fast as the FLAC conversion does including the conversion. Russ, you may just have found the reason why ... (although quite unknown still).
Thus, I have examined all the means of copying (quite a few exist at the low (C) level), and while an e.g. 100MB file may take 5 seconds to copy, a 100MB FLAC conversion may take 1-2 seconds. I never understood that ...