Optimizing Orelo Performance

[briefremarks]

Hi All,

Starting this thread to gather experiences from other Orelo owners on optimizing and getting the most out of these speakers.  Some areas of interest:

- Positioning in room
- Setup of FM curves
- Toe-in
- Tweaks
- Room treatments

Particularly interested in setup for large orchestral works: symphonies, etc.  There is probably overlap here with setup of XXHE parameters, Lush, Blaxius, etc.

I will follow up with detail on my current setup.  My sense is that my setup is probably not optimized, and this is only evident listening to large orchestral works which are probably the most demanding anyway.

Ramesh

[PeterSt]

Hmm ... Not much response here eh. But not from me either.
My excuse it that I play a different kind of music. 

Positioning in room I never (ever) touch.

FM Curves - Changing them never works out in the long term.

Toe-in - merely toe-out. That too I set once and changing it never works out for the better. My toe-out (like half a meter next to my ears and then crossing behind me).

Room treatments - none.

Sorry for 0c,
Peter

[arvind]

Hi Ramesh,

The Orelo’s, unlike many other speakers, really don’t require much of fiddling around with room positioning or toe in.

My impression is that as long as you keep them a min of 20” away from the back & side walls, you’re quite set. Having said that, what I mean is that whether it is 20” or 30” away, the sound doesn’t change at all. However the listening position should be where you don’t get bass cancellation from the rear wall. Highs & mids don’t change with different listening position, as long as it’s more than the distance between the 2speakers.

Toe in should be min, under no circumstances should it be beaming directly at you. Maybe a mtr away from the ears.

I’ve done my share of various FM/Bass DSP settings but eventually I’m back to FM all green & DSP as factory set. Works out the best.

No room treatment or tweaks in my set up.

My room size is 8.5mx5.7mx2.7m

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Arvind

[briefremarks]

Arvind, Peter:

Very helpful.  I have the Orelos 12" from side walls, and 50" from front wall (behind the speaker).  The back wall where I sit is open, so no reflections to worry about there.

I have tried FM curves, and basically have varied between all green (current setting) to all orange, and some setting in-between.  Never used red for any of the switches.

DSP is factory setting: bass is excellent.

Toe-in has varied from very little to focusing about a meter behind.  Strangely, even with the tweeter aimed directly at listening position, I have not experienced harshness.

The speakers sound fantastic.  But there is one area that I am trying to optimize; large orchestral works and symphonies.  With large string sections, also where strings and brass play simultaneously, there is more "smearing" than ideal.  I have wondered sometimes if the issue is wide frequency range the coax compression driver has to manage, so some further optimization to be made to the crossover for this type of music. 

Anyone else's experiences listening to large orchestral pieces with the Orelos?

Ramesh

[PeterSt]

Anyone else's experiences listening to large orchestral pieces with the Orelos?

I think your friend from LA likes classical as well. He should be expressive about this and by now he *is* into room treatment very much (with a more difficult room as you will know). I will ask him to jump in ...

Regards,
Peter

[arvind]

Hi Ramesh,

Maybe since you’re positioning is close to the side wall, it’s possible that’s causing the smearing. Try moving them 20” away or use diffusers at the first reflection point. Also diffusers behind the speakers does help in clearing up the highs & mids.

I don’t listen to Classical music so sorry can’t help you with that.

Best regards,

Arvind

[vrao]

Hi Ramesh,

I have reached a good sweet spot for all genre of music, classical (and ambient  )sound exceptionally great.  The side-wall treatments are very helpful in widening the sound stage, and reducing room noise. The bass traps in the corners behind the speakers have a component to tackle flutter echos. Bass traps behind the listening couch were to be mounted on the wall, but it works reasonably well on the ground. Not much toe in as you can see. With the right recordings one can have the illusion of music from behind the listening position as well. Considering the speakers act as point source, vertical soundstage is possible.

The horns generate a lot of energy... and acoustic treatments will do radical changes in its presentation. I.e. this is important for classical music where in there are numerous instruments, and smearing can have a domino effect.

Mine are typically all “red” for the FM curves, in the current room it works fine, I do try others every now and then, usually anything less, the spaciousness and image depth are affected.

This setup generates a soundscape that you are a part of (immersive), not just a plain figment of imagination, but as physical reality. Mostly to do with the bass, and how the system is able to let the entire harmonic structure of notes bloom into the room accurately. Bass is exceptionally clear! “Layered” square bass waves are appreciable, especially with ambient.

I have medium carpet and 9’ ceiling.

Pics can do the explanation.

Cheers, VJ

[PeterSt]

Pics can do the explanation.

I made them a little smaller so we can see them. If needed, I still have the large versions.

Peter

[PeterSt]

I have reached a good sweet spot

What's exceptional here is the "square" dimensions (138" x 138") - and then with reference to the toeing.

For the sweet spot (might I have any) I have it not that extreme but with the notice that I too have a couche where one can easily listen and now the dimensions are 240"(W) x 160(D)". No typo. This still works extremely well and the effect of crossing maybe 480" behind that listening position, doesn't do a thing that I notice. Imaging just remains and in fact it feels odd-ish that at such a close listening distance compared to the speaker distance all keeps on working (out).

IME this is toeing-out is crucial to the L/R bass not blending in a mush. So mind you (or you know already of course) the bass too is quite directional for these speakers (because of their "undistorted quality") and it just should not allow to add up (L+R) because else you challenge for the standing wave right in the middle hence you now *have* this sweet spot  "point" which IMO should be avoided. I know, this is quite contra-intuitive and against a few laws, but try it. And, each time I try to toe-in more, it doesn't last the session.

In my situation the bass is more profound and pronounced at 400" listening distance at the sides of the room there. This is not really reflections that I know of, and works out equally for both L/R sides. This is as if the middle beam (of a 240") cancels more (which is a bit like I just told about indirectly) with the suggestion that the beams on the sides add because of the side walls. It seems I can not prevent this BUT it largely depends on other factors like Q1 of XXHighEnd. Toeing in will help all right, but thus for the way worse. Possibly this is because of early (low frequency !) side wall reflections them crossing in your face.

Don't underestimate the power of the bass, combined with the again oddity that it is hard to extend that beyond the room (like towards neighbors or garden). Your stomach may ache because of direct impact while it dies out sooner than expected probably because you are "able to" not involve the walls (shaking).

Let me softly add that I am probably better off with bass traps, which btw I would not think of myself. But VJ has been over here and he not only tells about how vastly the sound quality improved in his room, but also that net his room is the better sounding (while dimensions are quite "impossible").
Btw, this visit was just prior to the creation of the Lush let alone the Lush^2 let alone the Blaxius^2, the Mach III and all that I forgot. Bass traps could be more expensive.

Thank you for your great help, VJ.
Peter

[briefremarks]

Peter, VJ:

Very helpful.  I think what I will try is start again with NO toe-in and then slowly adjust the toe-in just enough to get a stable center image.  Center to center is only 120" in my case.  Again, the ONLY music where I feel some adjustments need to be made are large orchestral pieces.  I was listening again to the Kleiber performance of Beethoven 5&7 last night, and something is "missing" but this could just be the limitation of trying to capture a full orchestra "at home."

I tried all red on FM, and in my case this actually increased smearing.  All orange sounds good, as does all green. 

Will try a few other things and report back.

R.

[vrao]

Hi guys,

Peter:
"IME this is toeing-out is crucial to the L/R bass not blending in a mush."
I believe you are right, this setup happened with some experimentation. In this position it all blended/locked in.


Ramesh:
Essentially this is a near field listening position. In fact, the FM curve selection may very well be as such. There is a 4-5 ft entrance on the side of the couch, which is continuity with stairs and hall, so there is some extra space for bass. For classical music, I would suggest moving the speakers wider (if you can), helps with imaging.
If you would like to hear the current setup, please do feel free to visit.

Best,
VJ

[briefremarks]

VJ,

I'll take you up on the visit!!

In this particular room, I cannot move the speakers wider apart.  I have two listening positions though. One on the couch which is  about 120" again (square as Peter says) from the speaker nose.  But I also listen further back, all the way across the breakfast nook and kitchen which are all in the space behind the couch. 

Ramesh

[vrao]

Hi Ramesh,

I would say room treatments do help with imaging (edit: expansiveness). As Peter mentions, it's a heavy investment ($$/size/aesthetics); but worthwhile  .

Kind regards
VJ

[briefremarks]

Started experimenting and have noticed something interesting.  I removed ALL toe-in, and then put in very little, much less than I had before.  The interesting this is that separation has improved quite a bit, some of the "harshness" with multiple strings and brass playing is almost gone.

I had essentially left toe-in as it was before Mach III, Lush^2, and Blaxius^2. It now appears that with the upgrades much less toe-in is needed.

Very encouraging so far.  Will continue with some testing.

[briefremarks]

Wow.  What a difference.  Changed toe-in from 19 degrees (where I had it) to 8 degrees.  Better separation, imaging, more expansive.  Did not imagine it would make such a difference.