Ethernet vs USB

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

On various occasions you have expressed the limitations or pitfalls or difficulties in implementing USB connection.

Why not use Ethernet to transfer data? Is this feasible or better or worse?

Probably a very strange question from a layman.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Arvind, not a strange question at all.
The interface has to be there, and the last time I looked into it (say a year ago or so) it did not exist. Oh, it exists, but by means of tricks I need to apply too. But two time the same trick on top of each other does not work.

Or put in another way : they must be natively 24/768.

I can imagine it exists by now because DAC chips with that speed start to exist (same as USB interfaces now start to exist formally with that speed).

If anyone runs into one, ... I am happy to learn about it (I could start Googling for it but I need to do a few other things (knowing that my Googling often consumes a day on whatever new subject)).

Thanks !
Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

Just to give you a start Andreas Koch of Playback Design is offering Ethernet connection in his DAC. I know a few blokes using it with Roon & they claim it sounds far better than USB.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hi Arvind,

Dozens exist. It is about the (PCM) speed (bandwidth).

I know a few blokes using it with Roon & they claim it sounds far better than USB.

With Roon itself sounding lousy ... So that doesn't tell me much. This is all too much apples and oranges.

Best regards,
Peter

[manisandher]

This is the only one I've heard about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenna_(networking)

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani, thank you.

That link does not work really well, but I know what you are talking about.
I am afraid that nobody wants to pay more for an interface than a Phasure NOS1abcdefg/G99 costs.
Well, sort of, because I forgot. 6K ?

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Something else but not :

We have a brand new NOS1a owner in our midst somewhere (so far he hides) who is going to make us such an interface.

And now I announced this, he may feel compelled to even do it.
haha

Peter

PS:

Probably a very strange question from a layman.

See Arvind ? that was quite all right.

[manisandher]

That link does not work really well...

Yeah, it's the ")" that's missing from the end of the URL when you click on the link (and I can't seem to correct it). Just put it in at the end and you'll get to the correct Wiki page.

The bandwidth looks OK...

Mani.

[jabbr]

Something else but not :

We have a brand new NOS1a owner in our midst somewhere (so far he hides) who is going to make us such an interface.

And now I announced this, he may feel compelled to even do it.
haha

Peter

PS:

Probably a very strange question from a layman.

See Arvind ? that was quite all right.

I could give you a quick simple interface but kind of need Linux USB driver... which could work as network audio adapter (NAA) ... or maybe I can figure out how to get Windows 10 running on the ARMv7 ClearFog base...
Teaser until native interface is working...

[arvind]

Well I hope this topic leads to something worthwhile.

[manisandher]

We have a brand new NOS1a owner in our midst somewhere (so far he hides) who is going to make us such an interface.

From CA:

I happen to have a very small stash [of PCM1704s] (8 or 16) sitting on the shelf for a very very rainy day Maybe @PeterSt will trade me an NOS1a for my stash :rotfl:

Ah, so you did take these off Jonathan's hands for a NOS1?

Welcome jabbr!

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Welcome jabbr!

Yes, a warm welcome from me too.

So jabbr, you found this a 100 times faster than I imagined, although I was sure that at one day you'd find my post about the interface. Of course it was very coincidental that I could write about it and that in combination with Arvind's question and your NOS1a arriving at the very same day. However :

What I do not want is that you see this (interface) as some sort of obligation. I only said it out of appreciation in combination which your desire to create such a thing and indeed maybe (all of) our wishes to have something different than stupid USB. FYI : I think I have been the very first (and only one for a longer time) who ever back on CA expressed how lousy USB was (for all of the reasons people, now 8 years later start to find out and complain about).
Anyway, I know as a first how "we" can like to do/develop things, but that it is always the lack of time which prevents it.

I happen to have a very small stash [of PCM1704s] (8 or 16) sitting on the shelf for a very very rainy day

So ... Of course that was challenging me a little, as I already knew that jabbr had these around, and he already knew how many we have laying around over here. But about the former ... these things can take years, until it is finally done or you give up.
So jabbr, don't feel pressed but when will it be ready ?
Nah, kidding !!

Peter

[jabbr]

Welcome jabbr!

Yes, a warm welcome from me too.

So jabbr, you found this a 100 times faster than I imagined, although I was sure that at one day you'd find my post about the interface. Of course it was very coincidental that I could write about it and that in combination with Arvind's question and your NOS1a arriving at the very same day. However :

What I do not want is that you see this (interface) as some sort of obligation. I only said it out of appreciation in combination which your desire to create such a thing and indeed maybe (all of) our wishes to have something different than stupid USB. FYI : I think I have been the very first (and only one for a longer time) who ever back on CA expressed how lousy USB was (for all of the reasons people, now 8 years later start to find out and complain about).
Anyway, I know as a first how "we" can like to do/develop things, but that it is always the lack of time which prevents it.

I happen to have a very small stash [of PCM1704s] (8 or 16) sitting on the shelf for a very very rainy day

So ... Of course that was challenging me a little, as I already knew that jabbr had these around, and he already knew how many we have laying around over here. But about the former ... these things can take years, until it is finally done or you give up.
So jabbr, don't feel pressed but when will it be ready ?
Nah, kidding !!

Peter

Thank you.

My prototype board is onsite and working on the driver which is the hardest part for me. The initial prototype will run an embedded ARMv7 based Linux which is most convenient for all the control logic ... so I'm knee deep learning how to write an ALSA kernel driver... that driver controls the FPGA and takes care of sending Ethernet frames from the network buffer to the FPGA using DMA.

The advantage is that my sims tell me the chip will use like 1.5W so battery or supercap supply shouldn't be an issue.

In the meantime I'm using a ClearFog base as a network audio adapter (NAA) which is also ARMV7 based. I'd like to be able to compare side by side, but I can also repurpose my old(er) Celeron NAA to run Windows using iSCSI boot.

You may get the idea that I'm a fan of keeping my upsampling workstation away from the electronics using an Ethernet 

[manisandher]

You may get the idea that I'm a fan of keeping my upsampling workstation away from the electronics using an Ethernet 

Haha... I remember trying to convince Peter to go the NAA route some 4 years ago:

So where does this leave us? Here’s my ultimate dream setup:

- main PC with W7/W8 (shouldn’t matter at all)
- although HQPlayer is cable of excellent SQ, and even though most of the controls in the Settings area should become obsolete, I’d rather use XX
     - I prefer the library management
     - I really, really want to use phase alignment
- of course, the NOS1 DAC – it’s simply the best I’ve heard

What would it take to achieve this dream setup? Obviously, Peter and Miska (Jussi) need to work together on it, and find a mutually beneficial way to do this. There would need to be appropriate drivers made for the NOS1 to work under Linux. And I think that’s it...

But a lot has changed since then. With the Mach II audio PC, I'm not sure an NAA is necessary now. And in any event, without a Linux driver, we can't use our NOS1s with an NAA.

But USB remains to total PITA, and if ethernet is the ultimate solution, we should pursue it. But audio PC -> ethernet -> NOS1 is surely the way to go (as indeed you seem to suggest).

Mani.

[Robert]

I think I have been the very first (and only one for a longer time) who ever back on CA expressed how lousy USB was (for all of the reasons people, now 8 years later start to find out and complain about)

Interesting comment. As it appears that current owners of some new Dacs much prefer I2s with HDMI.

USB certainly has spawned a number of devices to overcome USB issues/ re connections with computers, not with standing the "Intona" and now the "Phisolator".

I'm all for a better connection.

Robert