After a while SQ degrades - how come ? what to do ?

[manisandher]

Well, my Clairixa is in the left hand port and nothing is in the right hand. Now put up some music ...

Great! Let us know what you think...

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Okay ...

Let me start with expressing something which will be vague to y'all :
I think that by now I have crossed so many lines of the impossible that I start floating above myself and am not sure any more about my own references. What is also to keep in mind is that I am unable to change (settings) fast; I must be used to them for actuallly "days" before I can judge the next change.

The change with the USB (Clarixa) cable to the front of the Stealth was nothing but "OK", though with a continous sense of "what would others think of this ?". So I envisioned a group of people auditioning the lot over here and I seriously would need to warn them for unexpected crazy too much highs. "Too much" because of what people would be used to. However, both situations hard to imagine.

The fact that I judged all to be OK but in combination with this thinking of others, makes me say that something must have been for the better. This is not obvious because all is over the top to begin with (I am serious). What occurred to me was the longer cymbal, together with a possibly less colour of them but also a way more snappy or fast and with a net result of "I like it - but now what about others". Then I plugged in the Intona in the port next to it (just dummy as per Richard's finding) and then I was sure it was over the top massively (I took it out again really in three minutes).

So I just mentioned "over the top" twice, while I can't even describe one of them. Possibly it now all comes down to very personal hearing and that I am unable to objectively listen. I mean, I only want to listen/interpret what you guys may think of it and then I can not imagine that you like it for the better. So this is my over the top to some extent; better for me but with toes curled in shoes when you'd be next to me listening.

So it has potential.

Then I might think of : and when this helps because of better paths over the MoBo, what about our good old Silverstone USB card then ? this is not on the MoBo anywhere, but ... yeah, if it starts to be about these subjects then where does this leave us ? I suppose we are left with crazyness.

There's also something else now becoming apparent but I am far from sure whether it is good or bad (I think good but alas);
To me it now seems that the "better" (?) thinks get, the more hall from the whole sound picture is springing. Yesterday I was observing this quite explicitly for many hours (like 3.5) and there seems to be no way that I can associate this with things getting blurred or less accurate. I'd almost say : the opposite. It is just that the music plays in another space. I think I already told about the perception of all being played live while it is not so at all. This gets worse and worse. It also is a good example of "over the top" because at some stage it is too unrealistic (I think) to be perceived as nice and cozy. So your brain may start to be occupied with what in heaven's sake is happening for real with your lousy speakers and all.

Not sure whether caused by this particular change, but I often have examples of "deep bass" which is not so deep as we tend to believe. Well, coincidentally my low end cross-over is at 240 or so Hz and as coincidentally this just this boundary of "seems like in-woofer but probably is not at all". Thus, the examples I talk about actually always play out of woofer (in the mid) which I can easily feel. But I keep on trying because I can't believe it. And wtf that yesterday it (particular examples) really was playing in-woofer. So this front USB port gained low end ?

I see myself writing this latter and now think of all drums having the "under punch" which occurred to me yesterday. Or better, which occurs to me in aftermath from yesterday.

So yes, something has changed again and it looks to be for the better.
Peter

PS: I also suddenly know what the sound character is I hear emphasized : the Clairixa. So believe it or not, but tonight I am going to try a $1 stock cable.

[PeterSt]

Some interesting things happened :

So I started Playback and right from the start I could hear that something now was very wrong. The most wrong.
I said to myself, Peter, what the heck did you actually do with that Clairixa USB cable ? the difference seems quite impossible ...

Thus with the stock cable - remember, used by far the most prior to the Clairixa being there just because it is a good cable as such, apparently - all made no sound. I said "no sound" instead of no music, although "no sound" is figurative.
Djeezz.
So two years ago when the Clairixa just was not there we were listening to this $1 cable and judged all to be fine ? So what has changed since then ? This all seems impossible.
Sound was lifeless, and a total lack of power in everything. Bass was wobbling a bit compared to what I am used to lately. Btw, this was Supertramp - It was the best of times, "It's a hard world". If you know that (or try it) you can easily sense the whooosh of the bass in power mode and that combined with all the twinkling, at the start of that track.
Now ? nothing of that anywhere.

I put back in the Clairixa (btw all happened in the front port) and all was back right away.
Then I thought that possibly the USB cable has not been in well, but I didn't bother to check that because I was afraid of wasting my time again.
But then ...

Then this post goes on-topic again because I realized that that the whole sound scape was "10x" better than the day before. Thus, what I tried to make clear yesterday, was that something was emphasized and what I perceived of it, should have been the Clairixa. Well, I still think it was that, but in some fashion this topic is about;

What I thus did was exchange the Clairixa with the 1$ one and back. I now don't think that this all has anything to do with either USB cable, but with the sheer fact that it was taken out and back in again. And let's not forget : this very cable (either of them) controls the DC Offset. I mean, I think that we all know that without USB cable connection to the PC or when the PC is off, it can be d*mn difficult to get the DC Offset right.

I tell you : something is in that somehow. Also (for Richard), when the PC is rebooted, the USB connection is also cut off during the time the OS is not running (this is really the OS and not the MoBo).

That I personally never noticed this and have "something" with my amplifiers ... I don't know. Point is though that I seldomly reboot but *if* I do I switch off the amplifiers. So now I just am not able to find out wht causes what. It is only that when I switch of the amplifiers without rebooting, this also helps me.

I am not sure all really adds up, but something has to be going on in this area ...

Peter

[Nick]

Peter hi,

I recognise the sound characteristics you mention two posts above. Using the front port I get a clearer more expansive sound which on occasion can sound just a bit overblown. What is attractive here is that there is detail present in the sound but with less upper mid digital edge and slight splashiness. I take your point regards the treble though, I can see how it could be too much, here the extra "lift" is helping. One thing that really is more pronounced and good fun is that the decay of instruments can really extend nicely coupled with pick up of ambient echoes. This seems to help generate an interesting sound stage.

I also am not sure is 100% natural [yet] but the front left port it is probably the best option for me of the 4 ports.

Regarding your second post. Its interesting that the old USB cable failed so badly. I think it could be that the Clairixa is much better but your comments about making and breaking the USB connection lines up with experience here.

Now you mention it, I occasionally (not often) get bit errors for no reason that I can figure (ticks in sound and a few errors recorded on the NOS USB interface control panel) or sound quality just does not sound that good. Usually when this happens the best chance of sorting it is if I just remove the USB cable from the NOS wait and then reconnect it. Often this is enough to stop the ticks and restore sound quality. It doesn't always work and I suspect the result can be variable in terms getting all the way back to the best sound quality but it does make a difference when these symptoms happen.

It is interesting that the USB 3.0 ports sound just a little different to each other though. I think the trace path on the Mobo might have something to do with it, but it might also be the way the Chipset or OS supports the different ports or something else ??? I suppose it would be interesting to deliberately create some HF noise deliberately next to the traces and see if this impacts sound. If its easy to do at some point I might give this a try just to see.


I am using a USB 3 cable that I have had for years, I keep meaning to order a Clairixa. The extra resolution would be very welcome for system set up. I will PM you .

KR,

Nick.

[PeterSt]

Hi there Nick,

It keeps on amazing me how we can get consensus about in fact everything we both just wrote about. "Consensus" is actually a wrong term, because it is just agreeing in advance - I am sure there's a special English word for that.

Reading your last post I can add this :
More than once it slipped my mind that there's now a slight gap between the lower mid and real bass. This seems to emphasize the bass. In itself this is a good thing. However, what I seem to detect with it, is that now especially the basses from a same album (same production) may sound similar over tracks which is not what I am used to. This is not disturbing though because it could well be called "natural" that a same production sounds similar all over. However, one way or the other something changed in that area.

and slight splashiness

I am not even sure whether this is meant to re-write my wording (and English) I wasn't able to do well, but I feel that this is exactly what I wanted to say about the highs. Best I can describe it as : cymbals get smaller of this and perhaps too small - but this is the result of a cause and the cause you seem to describe.
Btw this also gives a general flavor to the sound which is not a bad flavor but it is one. In the very top and it is able to create (?) an extra set of harmonics which shimmer (and which to me feel realistic although I don't have sufficient experience with it yet).

Nick, did you happen to track down the traces of the USB2 headers in the left hand edge of the board (my first screenshot) ?
These lead to the DVD / 2.5" removable bay which has these two USB2 ports (XXHighEnd PC and Stealth the same).

Kind regards,
Peter

[Nick]

Peter hi

It keeps on amazing me how we can get consensus about in fact everything we both just wrote about. "Consensus" is actually a wrong term, because it is just agreeing in advance - I am sure there's a special English word for that.

We must have a more common reference with the Orelos :-) (Of course I do not have the B'ASS and Phisilator upgrades).

I also agree with your comments about the slight gap between the lower mid and deep bass and smaller Cymbals. In the case of the bass the slight gap has the effect of emphasising the low bass thuds without the higher harmonics of the instrument being hit which makes bass notes sound more similar and the emphasis on the deep bass make the tracks rhythm down slightly. Its not a massive effect but this is what I hear.

I will take a look at the USB2 traces if they are easy to locate, and post back.

KR,

Nick.

[PeterSt]

the effect of emphasising the low bass thuds without the higher harmonics of the instrument being hit which makes bass notes sound more similar

Exactly !
But the reference to "thuds" is also a very good one, because that is what is now happening more. Thus, if a thud is supposed to be a more "umpf" thing, then this is now more happening and in fact I like that as a phenomenon in itself. It is also well audible in most electric basses which basses for that reason therefore have a better life of their own (I am just referring to how I perceive electric basses at live events).

Strange kind of tuning we have in hour hands here !

Thanks,
Peter

[PeterSt]

                           


Say this is me in the left and Ciska in the right. Officially Ciska was reading a book, but this dropped.
It was our equal within 2 second and instant response after I changed something.

So a few days back, in this topic I talked about the "impossible" change of sound after replacing the Clairixa with the 1$ stock USB cable (in the front, left hand side USB3 port); The sound went completely dead, lifeless and lacking sprinkle. Now, with the Clairixa in that USB3 port as the base, I managed to go the exact other way around;

I think last night was the 3rd day of the Clairixa in that front USB3 port and as talked through yesterday, it certainly has properties for the better but with some possible doubts about some elements in the sound (put my and Nick's posts together and you'll have a nice overview of them all).
As you may have read, I wondered about the USB2 header (and traces on the MoBo) and ports. So I thought to be ahead of things and try a USB2 port in the front (bay).

Side note : Because of testing Phisolators in upgraded DACs, the Clairixa USB cable has seen a couple of other DACs than my own. That fact in itself did not change sound for the evening's session that I noticed.

So ... at some stage and after quite some hours of listening already, I stopped the album I was listening to, and put the Clairixa in the left hand USB2 port (in the DVD/2.5" bay). And ... nothing.
Pulled the cable and put it back in once again ... nothing.

Hmm ... Was this Minimized OS and USB2 requiring initialisation under Normal OS ? Is maybe my bay not connected to that USB2 header ?
OK, so apparently things did not want to work out and and I decided to then for fun try the right hand USB3 port in the front.

See pictures of us both above.

Ciska didn't even know I had been changing something, but she looked up from her book instantly and said "more dynamic ?!". I had a very similar idea about matters but merely had an overdose of clarity in mind. Well, overdose ... nothing seemed wrong with it.

Then within a few minutes dinner was ready and we had to stop listening. So more of this "mode" tonight.

What is and remains is how tf it is possible that such super drastic changes can happen. So again I say or claim or whatever, that 2 years ago such things were totally impossible and this is (must be) because all was so much lesser to begin with. I also recall from 2011 that someone for a first time thought to put in the USB2 cable/device (the NOS1) into an USB3 port, and found it better sounding. Maybe 6 months later I started doing so as well and did not really perceive a difference but thought it was OK to do.
Nothing, really nothing, resembles the crazy change in sound which is implied today with such a thing (which officially shouldn't make a change in SQ to begin with).

Peter

[nik.d]

Hi Peter,

Q:
If you purchase for example this 'USB3 Receptacle on Bracket" (not more than 5 euro) and connect it
on MoBo USB3 header, sound will be better than through 'Silverstone' PCI/USB3 extension card?

Thks & Brgds,
George

[Nick]

Peter hi,

I have had a quick try at "activating" the mobo header USB2 port then switching the NOS back to the front USB 3 port (connected to the USB3 header) to listen.

In my case the USB 2 mobo port did play music with the NOS connected (interesting sound actually, but a but dull overall).

Moving back now to listen with the front USB3 port. It does indeed sound very very clear. A more pronounced effect in terms of clarity, than just plugging another USB device into a spare USB3 port whilst using the Mobo header USB3.

In addition to the clarity there is more control and sparkle (less splashyness) in highs and cymbals are bigger again. The "clarity" seems to extend through the spectrum and there is a nice dynamic lift throughout.

First impression is very much positive. What ever next ???

Kr,

Nick.

[PeterSt]

If you purchase for example this 'USB3 Receptacle on Bracket" (not more than 5 euro) and connect it
on MoBo USB3 header, sound will be better than through 'Silverstone' PCI/USB3 extension card?

Hi George,

Uff, I understand what you're getting at. Anyway notice that I don't expect any difference to be there compared to the front USB ports (the principle of (electrical) connection is quite the same of course). So if you agree (but not necessary at all to do so) then I should be able to compare the Silverstone with the front USB3 ports. Two small problems : 1. I already know the result of the Silverstone and I don't like it any more (this is since 14393.0) and 2. I think that mine has died on me. So I can't test it any more.

The idea you just brought me is that when this is to stay, it is a good idea for bringing the "header" connection to the back of the PC, because this front isn't the best looking.

Thanks and regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Hi,

For those who are folowing the front-port escapades ... I moved my USB cable to the back again.

The right hand front (USB3) port didn't survive long anyway (too stressed sound) and with the left hand port I kepi on thinking that it sounded extraordinary but couldn't help that regularly it came to me that something was not right.

Do notice that I never changed other settings with this experiments, so I hardly gave it a real chance.

Peter

[Nick]

I may have a new observation which might be relevant to the change in sound quality being discussed.

To avoid confusion with earlier discusion this is not related to the usb port effects above but it does change sound quality.

For some months I have been using a new linear supply for my audio pc. The supply displays both supply voltage and the current being provided and can always be viewed from where listen. I have become used to seeing the audio pc's current demand (and therefore watts) consumed go through "normal" cycles as the pc boots, shuts down, programms are loaded etc etc.



When the pc is idle with xx loaded and no music playing consumption is arround 31 watts.

With music playing this "should" go upto arround 33 watts so just a little more. This level gives the best sound quality.

However I noticed that on some occations with music playing power can be at 58 watts. This is a reading of almost twice the current draw whilst playing.



The interesting thing is that the pc can start playing music at 33 watts and you can play mutiple play lists and this doesn't change. Then for no obvious reason when the next play list is loaded or even during a play list sometimes the wattage goes upto 58 watts. Once this higher consumtion has started it tends to stay at that level each time play is restarted. I am finding that setting xtweaks supply smooth power to 1 flips the consumtion back from the high level to the 33 watt level and then it stays there for new play sessions even if supply smooth power is set to 0.

In summary it looks like the high consumtion level can just start for some none obvious reason. When it does sound quality is not as good. Unless you have the power readout constantly on these changes will not be obvious.

Might this be something to do with the sound quality change. It might be something my pc is doing of course. I will do a little testiing to see of some things that people have been trying to "reset" sound, such as plug and unplug the usb cable might somehow be toggeling the pc back to the low power consumption mode whilst playing.

Kr
Nick.

[PeterSt]

Hi Nick,

O dear my ... you always come up with "quite interesting" things ...

If you can let this happen easily, maybe try 10586.0 instead of 14393.0 (or the other way around); to me it seems a typical OS thing. And I don't think others will have that easily too. But they can. I can ...

I coincidentally kind of "know" that I don't suffer from this, BUT this experience is not from 14393.0. I am not even sure from when it is, but it should be 10586.0. So, I too observed such a meter (with btw very similar results - 29-30W) and I never saw that happening.
With the Stealth I would see it happening, because if indeed the consumption would increase as you describe, the thermal protection would kick in and a bright led shows it (all Stealth owners have this the same). And this exactly never happened ... (also not with 14393.0).

What you should do is let TaskManager run and observe the CPU core graphs (per logical core). From there you will easily see how more cpu usage implies more wattage - also during playing. IIRC this works with 14393.0 all over and with 10586.0 it does not work with Q3,4,5 = 1 (TaskManager wil be frozen).

Maybe we can relate this to Mani's hot power supply (Teradak) which occurred once, or maybe you even have that exact one ...

Regards,
Peter

[Nick]

Hi Peter,

I will give the suggestions a go.

Good thing is that sound is very good event at high wattage. It is just better at low consumption :-)

Hi Nick,

Maybe we can relate this to Mani's hot power supply (Teradak) which occurred once, or maybe you even have that exact one ...

It was heat management that go me really looking into this. It could certainly have contributed to Mani's Teradak heat problem.

Regards,

Nick.