How .9u Sounds

[edward]

Could we ask Carlos Rodríguez, what does he think.

I have had many email conversations with Carlos and basically he has an older RME card that he really likes, which is not compatible with Vista. So at this time he does not plan to upgrade to Vista. He has modified the ASIO plugin (dll) for foobar (0.8.3) (running on XP) and he is very content with that.

But I too am dying to hear what he thinks of all this.

[PeterSt]

And Andrey,

Also, please tell me :
With what DAC do you have this bad sensation ? and what are your settings according to "DAC is" and "DAC needs" ? Also, at which Volume setting ?
I couldn't derive this from your post ... If it's the -0dB setting as you told in the other topic, I don't understand (yet ). In that case (-0dB), please try to help me with what could have happened.

[PeterSt]

Could we ask Carlos Rodríguez, what does he think.

I have had many email conversations with Carlos and basically he has an older RME card that he really likes, which is not compatible with Vista. So at this time he does not plan to upgrade to Vista. He has modified the ASIO plugin (dll) for foobar (0.8.3) (running on XP) and he is very content with that.

But I too am dying to hear what he thinks of all this.

This is not necessary as of yet, as my previous posts make clear. I sure hear it too in certain music, but so far I can (could ) accept it. The harmonic distortion is there though. It really needs dithering, but I'm afraid () it doesn't make the sound better. But if not indeed, so be it and 0.9u doesn't work.
Mind you, it is my opinion that if someone like Andrey has to visit the hospital because of so called "good sound", it just is not. No matter what "we" perceive from it.

Anyway, at this moment I'm far from thinking this is a lost case (the contrary), and first Andrey's answers to above questions are very important.
Next, I have some ideas on a good means of dither on one hand, or not needing it on the other. It is way complex though because I'm operating in area's outside of schoolbooks (and mr. Google for that matter). But hey, it's a way of living !

[SeVeReD]

Hiyall

The systems been on most all the day (breaking in new vol placements I thought'd be good), but I didn't go in to sit and listen but for the last two hours.  Not enough time for conclusions, but thought I'd post.  First off... right now everything seems to be apples and oranges; meaning things are different, but I haven't been able to determine if things are better or worse....or just different.  That's a good sign; it means things don't strike me as being completely whacked.  Cymbals do seem very lifelike...nice decay.  I've got my 4 xover volumeS all turned up and am using the digital vol on XXHE.  That means the bass vol are full on but my high vol is cut back a little.  I have not gone back and forth on players yet... only listening to 9u0a.  At the xover I've always known a certain ratio of bass to high volumes to use.... I don't know if that ratio holds up at these full vol settings (or with this new player).  So differences I perceive might be explained by me trying to learn where to set vol controls to match what I've known.

At the moment I've been playing music probably louder than usual, but I don't hear any distortions (harmonic or otherwise yet)... it all sounds very good, clean but full.  I feel I need to cut back on the high end vols to pick up the same balance I had before... but that is a lot different ratio of volumes than I was listening at before (bass would normally be too loud at ratios I'm using now compared to before, but that doesn't seem to be a problem; cleaner/better defined bass? maybe...xover bass volumes control the 2 pairs of 12"s in the main speakers and 3 subwoofers).  Trying to match the same volumes between players is going to be much more difficult... I need to just find the best setting for each player and judge which one I like better... regardless of vol. (btw I would really like up down vol buttons and a window showing vol setting/number so I can turn off tool tips...)

I have not tried putting my vols back to where they were and putting XXHE at 0... i should probably try that too.  Right now XXHE vol is at -18db...I hate to go lower/move away from 0 because as I've said my dac only reads 16 bits (i think) and I hate to take away from that...am I taking away from the 16 bits by playing with the XXHE vol (staying out of the red area)?  All right, more listening now.  later all

[PeterSt]

Hi Dave,

btw I would really like up down vol buttons and a window showing vol setting/number so I can turn off tool tips...)

Hmm ... yes, that's a not so smart construction I brew there.

Ok. Dave, you *really* should put back your normal volume balance (including that resistor thing). Otherwise there would be *no way* of comparing. Things are so way way different, that you'd think it's the changed balance all the time.
You want to cut off highs ? you shouldn't -> This is the first example of it.
If anything has changed ... it is the bass. How can you tell now ?

Please put it back.


-18dB is fine IMO. You'd have lost 3 bits there, but they are in the analogue noise anyway. As long as you don't hear distortion it's good. Try -48dB to learn what type of distortion it is or LOWER (-54) if you can't hear it properly because it's too soft.

Edit : To be clear : After putting everything back, set your analogue volume to Max ! (after setting the appropriate digital volume).
Edit2 : err ... I meant the volume that needs the most max, the others adjusted to that.

[SeVeReD]

I was thinking the different ratio of highs to bass that I was using was maybe because at this analog vol level (full up bass/close to full highs) the resistor ladder was different than at lower analog settings....I don't have any home brew resistors in the path... just the volumes from teh passlab xover.

When I go into vol properties for the usb-dac I have only 3 choises
1) 16 bit 32000 Hz FM quality
2) 16 bit 44100 Hz CD quality  (*what i have chosen)
3) 16 bit 48000 Hz DVD quality

These are the only option I'm given... so that's all the dac can accept, right?  On the Stello usb-dac itself I have a switch that "upsamples" to 192 KHz (I don't use it; I have it set to bypass)... doesn't mention bits on the dac face, but...

I wonder why the usb doesn't except more rates than the 3 presented to me in vista vol properties if it can upsample on the dac itself... can't listen to any "hi-rez" WAVs... I have all CD stuff right now anyway, but someday ... I'll have to watch for that when I figure out what new DAC I may want ... I've figured NOS dac was good for CDs... but what about future hi-rez....and being able to control vol but not take bits away from the music would make me happier heh...

[PeterSt]

The sound device properties (Advanced Tab) from Vista do nothing according to Exclusive Mode. It will represent the DAC's possibilities though.
Your DAC may upsample, but that doesn't imply that it can accept the higher input rate.

[SeVeReD]

A couple back and forths with 9U0a on these two settings just now:

a) xover Volumes of bass full-on and highs 3/8 inch cut from that, XXHE vol -18 between 14 - 18

b)xover Volumes of bass at 10 oclock and highs just past 9oclock (normal listening positions), XXHE vol 0 Q1 18

Volumes not at same level... oh wellz, a) is a little louder (i'll turn b up a bit)... and right now I prefer a) setting: cymbals sound more alive bass more taut better defined...presentation comes forward a little but still depth to the soundstage... need time, but I'll keep posting every little thought that comes to mind heheh sorry

I've tended to like moving the Q1 up toward 18 more than 14 (moving toward 18 seems to bring more clarity)... is there a good reason for that? just my dac? or personal preference? (actually may like Q1 14 for my a) setting over 18 (too thinned out?...hmmm)

[edward]

...On the Stello usb-dac itself I have a switch that "upsamples" to 192 KHz...

...I wonder why the usb doesn't except more rates than the 3 presented to me in vista vol properties if it can upsample on the dac itself...

Well, I'm not an engineer, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with the USB Receiver Chip. For example, my M-Audio uses the TUSB3200C. I know this chip, as well as the TAS1020 can handle 24/96. But, for example, the PCM2903 (as used by Bel Canto and Musical Fidelity) are limited to 16/44.1 or 48. So whether or not the actual DAC is capable of higher does not matter.

Do you know which chip your Stello uses? Or would you be brave enough to open the case and find out?

[SeVeReD]

...On the Stello usb-dac itself I have a switch that "upsamples" to 192 KHz...

...I wonder why the usb doesn't except more rates than the 3 presented to me in vista vol properties if it can upsample on the dac itself...

Well, I'm not an engineer, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with the USB Receiver Chip. For example, my M-Audio uses the TUSB3200C. I know this chip, as well as the TAS1020 can handle 24/96. But, for example, the PCM2903 (as used by Bel Canto and Musical Fidelity) are limited to 16/44.1 or 48. So whether or not the actual DAC is capable of higher does not matter.

Do you know which chip your Stello uses? Or would you be brave enough to open the case and find out?

Hiya Edward
Ya the Stello uses the PCM2704 chip.  (doh  except ment to be accept)

[edward]

Ya the Stello uses the PCM2704 chip.

Unfortunately, the PCM2704 is like the PCM2903. Limited to 16/48.

I believe this is the inexpensive route for manufacturers implementing USB input on their DACs. This "off-the-shelf" solution enables them to provide USB without having to write drivers or special code for the firmware. (It uses the native OS USB Audio driver) Using the other two chips I mentioned means the manufacturer either has to provide a custom driver to install, or if they want to provide a "driverless" solution, then they have to specially program the firmware (such as Benchmark, Wavelength, and Empirical Audio do).

[andy74]

And Andrey,

Also, please tell me :
With what DAC do you have this bad sensation ? and what are your settings according to "DAC is" and "DAC needs" ? Also, at which Volume setting ?
I couldn't derive this from your post ... If it's the -0dB setting as you told in the other topic, I don't understand (yet ). In that case (-0dB), please try to help me with what could have happened.

I tried it all with -0dB: I didn't want to change anything to compare with t version.
So mostly I am talking about -0dB.

Then I have the same "sensation" on both my setups.

1. A very cheap noname USB sound adapter, which supports only 16 bit 44.1/48kHz
2. ESI Juli@ The card uses an 8-channel multibit 24-bit 192 kHz DAC AKM AK4358.

I tried 16/44.1 and 24/44.1 dac setting for julia.
And I noticed a little difference with 24/44.1, it sounded a bit smoother to me than default 16/44.1 but still not as "painless" as 0.9t

What do you mean by "cope with nos DAC", don't understand.

P.S. visiting the hospital. that was a good one

[PeterSt]

Then luckily this is not about harmonic distortion !

The downside is : now I don't know. Another question : did you try this all UnAttended ? (sorry if you already told it somewhere)

[andy74]

Yes it is all unattended.
To clarify: The SQ improvement is huge with 0.9ua version, it is just this little thing that poops the party for me, pardon my French.

[PeterSt]

Ok. For 0.9u-1 (maybe tonight) I'll try to get you something which is for 44.1/16 (ouput !) the most similar to 0.9t. Currently this is not 100% so but the differences in the (sequence of) code are so small, that I'd say it can't make a difference. Well, I said that before.

Virtually there's another kind of problem : the fact that gross you find it better sounding. This too must come from the same small changes, so you can expect that to go then. Also see Version 0.9U feedback where Russ seems to be witness of some huge changes, and which must be about the same changes you sense. That is, he too just does not use the volume (if I understand right) and in fact I couldn't understand what his raving was about;
Things apparently *have* changed in that (in fact unchanged) area, and maybe I must be careful myself to what changes *I* listen to, including the useage of the digital volume (I never went back).

There's also the caveat of people setting their "DAC is" to something higher than 16 bits (which would be the most logical if the DAC "is" something else than 16 bits), while not using the digital volume, and in the mean time don't tell about the first (Russ ?). I mean, that *will* matter because the DAC is used completely different then (like you noticed the little smoother sound with the Juli@).

Last question : are you using Invert at these sensations (before 0.9u and after) ? (not that you shouldn't, but then I know which part of the code is applicable to you).