The 0.9u what actually happened topic ...

[PeterSt]

Please briefly read this post : http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=365.msg2448#msg2448

Now, anyone who has an idea of what I actually "applied" with 0.9u(-0) is free to guess here. So I mean the technical explanation of what 0.9u shows for sound. If someone can reason it out (or guessed it) I sure will admit.
If no one can, we'll see ...

Peter

[edward]

Please briefly read this post : http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=365.msg2448#msg2448

Now, anyone who has an idea of what I actually "applied" with 0.9u(-0) is free to guess here. So I mean the technical explanation of what 0.9u shows for sound. If someone can reason it out (or guessed it) I sure will admit.
If no one can, we'll see ...

Peter

Well, I've only been able to play with 16/44 files so far, so I didn't want to mess with digital volume yet. But in comparison to previous, it feels like the phase is different. Specifically, 0.9u feels more "in" phase.

FWIW, I'm currently starting with Q1=14, and invert checked.

[PeterSt]

Hehe Edward, your observations are in the exact same direction as what occurred to me kind of instantly, although I had the idea that things might be more *out* of phase. For myself I decribed it as "phase problems". I could perceive the same as you though, and that it's the other way around. Things are rather different from this anyway, and perhaps it needs to get used to. Watch out for pianos, public handclapping ...

Btw, for myself I think I can explain why this is potentially different. Mind you, it was nothing I did explicitly and it would be a derival from other things. Quite logical once you know what actually happened ... I think it also depends on the other parts of the chain how this can work out ...

[edward]

OK I've been playing with Q1 = -2 and with Invert checked I do start to feel like things might be more *out* of phase. Vocals seem tighter and more *in* phase, but all the other instruments seem more *out* of phase. Almost like it is a surround sound mix or something. If I listen with headphones, some songs almost sound like some instruments are behind me.

Is that weird?

It could just be the songs I was listening to tonight. It seems to be more revealing though. Like some of these recordings sound like half the mics are correct polarity and the other half are inverted.

[PeterSt]

Edward,

Like some of these recordings sound like half the mics are correct polarity and the other half are inverted.

This by itself is nothing strange, because recording people don't pay that much attention to this stuff (mind you, we're talking absolute phase here, which is unrelated to left/right stuff). The only thing what could puzzle me is how they could connect things wrongly, thinking XLR would be properly (hence always the same) phase connected ?
Btw, I have code in there that would auto-set absolute phase correctly, but because of what you now are "able" (?) to hear, it just can't work. This code, therefore, never made it to the public.

Now :
What's happening is actually quite interesting;

Hehe Edward, your observations are in the exact same direction as what occurred to me kind of instantly, although I had the idea that things might be more *out* of phase.

To be honest, when I was writing about this to someone via email when I had it just running, I honestly decribed this differently :
... there seem to be phase problems now though ...
By now I wouldn't call it problems, but much more audible what's happening at the recording side, just because it is better audible ...
For example, yesterday I was listening to a recording and the voice sounded so out of phase that after I while I started to pay attention to it and now I'm sure the person was singing through a slight touch of vocoder. I never heard that before ...

That it all causes more 3D positioning is clear to me too, and since I try this with records I know, I'm kind of convinced that it is for the better.
What I feel is that things have become so "sharp" thinking in waves, that colliding in air happens different / more precise (?).

All what we listen to for 3D (or 2D if you want) matters is related to phase and "time alignment". What XXHighEnd now is "starting" (hehe) to produce is better phase conjunction or however to call it.
I'm fairly sure it is also something our brain has to get used to. I don't know why, but so far each day I have the feeling things have to burn in for a couple of minutes to the sense of "is this right ??", while after these few minutes the music becomes as unnoticeable as possible.

At this moment I'm not sure what to make of it all. Think of this :
2 voices sing into their own microphones. The distance to the microphone is not equal (like half an inch difference). Well, that would incur for absolute phase problems, wouldn't it ?
Same with voices versus instruments directly connected (like a synthesizer) or the sound catpured by a microphone again (like often happens with (bass) guitars and the microphone just being in front of a monitor speaker). All those individual distances wouldn't match.
I think this works out differently when 2 microphones capture the mixed sound at e.g. 10 meters distance.

It seems that the "anomalies" coming from the various microphones and all are audible now ?

[SeVeReD]

I too think I'm hearing phase differences... or something akin?  I've been listening for the last 3 hours (it's 2:30 am here... damn you Peter ) and really enjoying the music.  But, I'm at the point where I'm familiar enough with the new player that I'll have to go back to .9T7 to see if one player is better than the other.  With this version lyric intelligibility seems better;  I have a lot of rock stuff where the lyrics are buried pretty subconsciously in the mix.  When going back to another player maybe I'll be able to tell if .9U version is delineating this vocal range better or stripping the music down so lyrics are heard easier.  Really, at this point, both .9T-7 and .9U-1 are so good it may be a cr*p shoot... maybe not... Like I said, time to do the dreaded back and forth stuff to really tell (I have not fired up .9T since .9U came out).  The first difference I heard when I fired up .9U was in the bass... and again I don't know yet which is better, but
I think .9U is either even more taut and nuanced (I wouldn't have thought that was possible) or it's striped down or the impact zone has moved forward a couple feet (arrggg playing with the phase control on the subwoofers again... not my favorite chore).  I'm really not an audiophile... I just want everything to be perfect and to then listen to the music hahaha

Well, I think I have about another hour of listening left in me...but I won't be making any changes or back and forth tonight,,, more listening to .9U are in order.... and that may say something in itself.

Tell me why I still like moving the Q1 slider up to 18... I need to try to go down to -2 again too (and invert maybe).  I liked that area once, but the comp would stop playing sometimes in this area...never a stop of music at 18

[PeterSt]

Dave,

I think that the lot of your post can be put down in other words, which anyway is how I perceive it myself over and over : all is direct in your face now. So, "direct in your face" *is* a description which might be new to audio, but when you once heard about the phenomenon (like now hehe) you may start to recognize it all over ...

Voices (for sure female) have become super-tight or "steady", "stable" or maybe I can say tout (I'm not sure whether the latter is applicable to bass only). This is the same with guitars and all and more tenor saxophones start to sound like I though only Jan Garbarek could do it (which btw would be a most challenging test for the audio chain).
The same it is with bass.

But it implies another -I think- important matter : when things are in your face, and it is clear that this is about things which naturllay "can" be in your face (a trumpet would be the best example), this implies "more towards you" just the same. And, since not all instruments and noises are "in your face", there's a depth change implied.
Whether this is similar to what Edward told about the headphone I can't tell, but it sure looks like it.

Since I usually listen in the back of the room (actually the kitchen), cooking and boozing and all -and which is at 11 meters / 33' from the speakers- it occurs to me that when the music is loud enough the woman, guitar and all "shout" in my face at one meter distance, while at the same time "background" comes from (more) far. This sure wasn't so ...

It *also* implies a negative, of which I wonder wether anyone of you noticed it : more buzzing. Especially more high key notes are more or less back to before-XX days, and reflections start to play a role again (my all so ever teaching about standing waves being disappeared ... they've come back a bit). In the bass too.
But like I said elsewhere (I think), things seem to start colliding in mid air. So, not so much because of reflections to walls, but merely within itself. Each time it happens I really wonder whether this would be avoidable in nature ...

[manisandher]

Hi Peter,

There seems to be quite a lot of aliasing happening when you double the sample rate (see attached jpeg showing a 5 KHz sinewave).

Interestingly, this reduces slightly if you also upsample to the doubled sample rate.

This has a definite affect on the sound - makes it more 'airy'... and I have to say, more life-like.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hi Mani,

It has been quite a while since I looked at hese kind of tests, and I actualy wonder whether I ever did on Vista. This is kind of related to the Exclusive Mode capturing (hence recording) "facilities" which change something to the state of things ... of which I by now forgot the real merits. It is related though to the measuring of bit perfectness which therefore is quite a task in Vista Exclusive Mode. This is the reason why I needed two Firefaces to check for that in the beginnings (which I mentioned somewhere recently ... I even recall your name associated with that ?).

I must say though ... tonight I was listening more explicitly to Upsampling (which as well as Doubling I didn't for many months) with my wife and we were talking about the "buzz" slightly coming back, and for which XX is kind of "fameous" of not having it, like I (honestly ) talk about in the previous post here :

It *also* implies a negative, of which I wonder wether anyone of you noticed it : more buzzing. Especially more high key notes are more or less back to before-XX days, and reflections start to play a role again (my all so ever teaching about standing waves being disappeared ... they've come back a bit). In the bass too.

Now look at your graph at the low end ... (and see subwoofers (which I use) make something out of that ...)

Thank you very much Mani.
Peter


PS: You don't hear *me* say that this is the way to improve sound.. More life-like or not ...

[manisandher]

Hi Peter,

I don't have much time to respond right now, but I wanted to let you know that I believe the measurement at 25Hz to be noise recoded on the test signals that I was using. The test signals were extracted from the CD 'Sound Test 2' on the MFSL label, produced by Alan Parsons.

The aliasing around 22.05 KHz, however, seems to be a real consequence of the doubling and upsampling of the 44.1 KHz signal... perhaps contributing to a (false???) sense of 'air' that I and others are experiencing???

Mani.

[SeVeReD]

Well I did jump back and forth this evening between 9T-7 and 9U-1.  I don't know how you do it... cause I thought 9T-7 was incredible... but now it sounds too laid back, not as taut, or clear not as live, as 9U-1.  I may play with the phase on my subs to see if I can move the wave back a bit to my seat... but I may not really have to.  The bass sounds so tight,, maybe not as full as 9t-7, but I still think I may be talking out of my as*.  The bass sounds incredible with 9U-1, don't get me wrong.  But if I have a question about the two players it remains there... from the upper bass on up to the highs, there is no question about 9U-1, a new standard for my lowwwlllllyy 16/44.1 nosamplingnothing playback.

[PeterSt]

The bass sounds incredible with 9U-1, don't get me wrong.  But if I have a question about the two players it remains there...

I 100% agree. Maybe we can both pay attention to this :

The low end of the bass (say under 40Hz) seems not louder, but I'm fairly sure it goes more deep or the deep end (~20Hz) is "louder". Can this actually be so ? it's hard to believe ... BUT :

I may play with the phase on my subs to see if I can move the wave back a bit to my seat...

Here you have a point I never thought about ...
Maybe you recall this post of mine were I talked about fumbling bass in the woofer area being able to shift downwards into the subwoofer area because of getting more tight ? This was a rather blahblah story trying to find explanations on a certain new XX version back then, and what I said sounded rather ok to myself, but the actual "why" kept spinning in my brain. Mind you, I measured (IIRC) something like 26dB more subwoofer output at that XX version. Later, at again another version the subs' output was back to normal again, and I judged the earler version wrong for it. But was it ? or is actually something else going on ...

If anything matters in the subwoofer area, it's the phase. For those who don't know : if you have more than one subwoofer, you're actually in deep trouble, because they will cancel out eachother or emphasize. This difference is a matter of "normal" versus house-brake-down activity.

Dave, your quoted text above brings me to this :

To me, by now, it is the most obvious that all what matters according to the changes of 0.9t vs. 0.9u is phase related. *That* this is so is fully logic to me, although I couln't predicty it really. Mind you, this is a Q2 potential.
Anyway, it will be clear to you what I'm heading for Dave : the phase has changed such that the subwoofers need re-adjustment.

For orientation, it is my own idea that (somehow) is is more about phase-alignment between the individual drivers of one speaker(-set, like Left) than that it is about left-right. Think again of my mentioned shifting fumbling woofer to tight subwoofer bass.
I know, everybody will say that it is impossible to mangle time alignment of drivers in a speaker (without XOver software like is *not* in XX), but I guarantee you it can. It is not explicit though.

So, in the above I say that the most attention should go to getting the subwoofer phase aligned with the woofer at the same side (e.g. Left). I think it is this what I hear going wrong.

Now listen to those VERY forward voices and guitars and all. IMO here's a left/right phase deal going on as well. If you indeed sense this as very much "more forward" you can imagine what two interacting subwoofers will do at the low end.

Mind you, adjusting the subwoofers via calibration software is sheer impossible now. It will produce the sound differently. Think of the difference between 0.9u and 0.9t, or Foobar for that matter. So, what springs to my mind is that I must create a set of test tones suitable for the job, so they can be played through XX. Similar to what Mani did in his post above. I must dive into that anyway.

Thanks.

[SeVeReD]

I've been listening to both 9T-7 & 9U-1 on lots of different stuff and the sub bass on 9U-1 is just much better.  The sub bass 9u1 hits differently and places the waves in very distinct places/waves rather than the more laid back homogeneous/mushier to be crude 9T-7.  More live sounding now that I've been thinking and playing different stuff in the neither regions.  Much more forceful comes to mind.. in a good way.  Very precise poundings.  Really enjoying listening....but,,, but ,,,, what if I had a new "dac" along side XXHE "transport".... i wonder



k shoot me now...