Building a music server and RAM OS questions

[fmanheck]

Hello
With the help of my friend Dave (music33) I plan to assemble a music server. I am not a strong computer user so I get confused and sometimes lost quite easily. Thanks for your understanding  .

I am hoping the forum can give us some guidance with this and some questions I have about the RAM OS. Below I have some questions or statements. Please give me any suggestions comments or feedback on any or all. Thanks very much in advance

I would think the most simple way would be to have the server with 2 LAN connections.

I will probably buy a used computer for this server. I would want this to be good enough to not have to consider upgrading for a long time. Yesterday I looked at an I5 but an I7 for about $90 more had a larger case to support more HDs. On the subject of hard drives; does it make a difference in SQ if they are internally mounted or external USB type?

It would be really good if there is a way that that the Phasure computer keeps the connection to my NAS (which is my current music software connection but of course the new server as well)when I reboot. My guess is I just don’t know how to do it.

When I make a playlist in XXhighend and play it through, I seem to lose the "library" (it disappears) and it takes close to a minute for the music drive (NAS) before the drive comes back (reappears) into the “library” again. Is this normal? I get the spinning circle and the message that 10586.vhd-RAM is not responding.

Unrelated to the music server. I am now able to play with (no clicks, pops etc.) a much lower number than 4 on SFS. I am not really sure if I like the lower number (.2) more than 4. What exactly does the SFS do? I have read but I don’t really understand.

I am going to revise signature after this post so you can see what I am looking at in XXhighend. Thanks again for all your help with this .

Fred

[music33]

Just to add some context on the 2 LAN connections -
Fred currently has a NAS, so he could do either
(a) Connect the NAS to the music server directly.  In this case, he would need one Ethernet connection for the NAS and one to the audio server.
(b) Not use the NAS and have the music on a drive on the music server,  In this case, one Ethernet connection is needed. 

Fred, if you go with (a), then you only need a small drive just for the OS.  I don't see in either case why you would need a USB type of drive.  You'll either use your NAS or an internal drive in the music server.

In both cases, the audio server would have a drive mapped to where the music resides.

From reading Mani's, post switches and routers should be avoided.  Direct Ethernet connections are better.

The music server needs an OS version that is professional, so RDP connection can be made.

Hopefully I've got everything correct.

[nik.d]

Fred, Dave

As how I look on computer audio: 

- 'Music Server' would be some (older) PC, used as music storage (used instead of NAS server)
- 'Audio PC' would be dedicated PC with powerful CPU & say 16GB of RAM and good (clean) Power Supply. With OS disk in it an nothing else. With Peters solution, it could be 'diskless' machine as well.

Since you have Core2Quad CPU in (as it looks to me) your 'Music Playback' PC, I would use that machine for the role of 'Music Server' and attach all HDD's containing music in there. Would add Gigabit
LAN card as well. You already have some Win OS running, I don't see which one it is, W7 or W8. Doesn't matter, what you need is OS with support for 'Remote Desktop Protocol' so 'Pro' or 'Ultimate" edition.

Your NAS server can be used as backup machine, you would like all your music files be backed up. And your photos & video files stored in there, easily accessible etc.

Now you are on the market for powerful PC with some i7 or similar processor, 16GB of memory, good PSU, PCIe-USB card (Silverstone one) and perhaps one more Gbit LAN card.
You can purchase HDD from Peter with several OS's pre-installed or choose to purchase smaller HDD for OS of your choice - most probably will be W10, 'stripped'. And nothing else.
Half empty but silent and powerfull 'AudioPC'. Never connected to internet. No monitor, keyboard, mouse, graphics card. Remotely controlled from your 'Music PC'.
Next step is 'Tablet PC' connected to 'Audio PC' through 'Music PC', used as nice touch screen remote controller. Larger one preferred, say 9-10".

Hope my 'view' helps a bit.
George

[juanpmar]

Very good summary George!

Juan

[fmanheck]

Sorry for the confusion about my PC. It is actually the XXhighend PC with RAM OS HD. I have edited my signature. Therefore I only need the computer for the server. Thanks, George for confirming I need a second LAN card installed for the server.

I currently have a bunch of external USB HD drives. Will SQ with these be the same as an internally mounted HD? I know "everything matters" so since I am starting on this server journey I want to optimize from the start. Hence some of my other questions in the original post.

Based about what I am reading, the tablet will be the way to go. Would that be attached via wireless router to the new server PC?

Thanks everyone

[PeterSt]

Hi Fred,

I won't be going into the answers I already gave you by email (and I'm not even sure why you ask those questions again, apart from the convenience of copy-paste (haha)).

If anything what's attached to the Music Server PC makes a difference in sound, I'll eat something strange.

Your NAS can just be connected to the Music Server PC and will be acessible by the Audio PC like anything else will be accessible in your Music Server PC from there.
It is only that you don't need any NAS when a Music Server PC is there already (providing the same facility). But if you have it anyway ...

Regards,
Peter

[juanpmar]

Hi Fred,
I don't think it matters what you do in the Music Server Pc. I mean that no matter the structure of the Music Server Pc, if you have the hdd inside or not, because in the end the Music Server Pc is used to send the music files through the Remote Desktop, to the Audio Pc.
I personally don't use a tablet as I have near me the Music Server Pc, so I use a monitor and a keyboard. The problem may come from the noise generated by the Music Server Pc and the switching devices you plug in same power ring than the Audio Pc, like certain components as a Dock for external hdd. The solution I'm working on now is to make the Music Server Pc completely silent and to avoid the switching plugs. To do it I'm going to use an auto refrigerated motherboard like this one: http://www.asrock.com/mb/intel/q1900-itx/
I will also replace the HDD containing the OS for a 120Gb SSD with W10 and XXHighEnd (in case I want to use Tidal) and another 500Gb SSD with a selection (Flac ) of the music that interests me more. These SSDs are SATA connected internally. I'll keep the other hdds I have with several Tb of music as backup and to record more SSD. As PSU for the Music Server Pc you can use a fanless Seasonic or a Mini-Box picoPSU. As a PC case I'll probably use something like a Thermaltake Cube V1 but won't use its fan. The cost of this Music Server Pc including the SSDs: 300/400€ depending if you already have some of the components.
For the purposes of SQ what matters is how to manage the information once it arrives to the Audio Pc (Ram-disk etc.) and thereafter ( NOS 1 etc.).

Best regards,
Juan

[manisandher]

I personally don't use a tablet as I have near me the Music Pc, so I use a monitor and a keyboard.

Hi Juan, I totally understand why you would want to make your music-PC silent, because it is currently in close proximity to where you sit, and you use it directly for controlling the audio-PC. But making PCs silent introduces considerable costs.

Please bear in mind the solution that I've adopted (based on Peter's recommendations and the thread that KnB started). My music-PC is full of HDDs and fans. No problem because it sits well away from my listening room in the basement. It is connected via a direct ethernet connection to the audio-PC. My audio-PC happens to sit in fairly close proximity to the music-PC, but quite frankly it could be 100m away because the ethernet connection would still work fine. I then use my work laptop to create an RDC connection to the music-PC. This setup works so well.

The problem may come from the noise generated by the Music Pc and the switching devices you plug in same power ring than the Audio Pc, like certain components as a Dock for external hdd. The solution I'm working on now is to make the Music Pc completely silent and to avoid the switching plugs.

In my setup, both PCs share the same 'dirty' AC mains line. But what I've done (which I'm not sure anyone else has tried yet) is to have the rest of the system (NOS1a and active Orelos) powered on a totally separate (and as isolated as possible) 'clean' AC mains line. It is the Intona USB isolator that then has the job of keeping the two lines galvanically isolated to prevent ground loops. This way, you can continue to use as many switching devices as you want.

So Juan, why don't you simply place the music-PC in a totally different location and save a lot of money in the process?

Mani.

(Edited to make more comprehensive.)

[juanpmar]

Hi Mani,  as you see in my previous post the Music Server PC I'm thinking about is quite cheap. I don't use either a NAS nor a tablet as I said. As far as I know and based on what I read here it's not necessary a powerful Pc to be used as Music Server Pc. In fact right now I'm using an old AMD pc with 4Gb Ram DDR2, it works perfectly with the RDC and the two hdd of 2Tb each that I have now in a dock connected via USB3 to this Music Server Pc. It is only that I want to make it totally silent.
About to isolate totally the Audio Pc, at this moment I can't build a separate AC mains line but, although I'm using the same AC line for all the system, I can use some AC filters I have to isolate the NOS1a and the active Genelec as much as possible. I'm using also the Intona.
To have the Music Server Pc near me it is, at this moment, more convenient and cheaper than have it in another room.
Thanks anyway for sharing your setup.

Juan

[PeterSt]

Fred,

I just read back a little and ...

I won't be going into the answers I already gave you by email (and I'm not even sure why you ask those questions again, apart from the convenience of copy-paste (haha)).

Now I am not even sure where I got this from (my) this morning. Possibly because of what Dave mentioned and I saw that as one pile of "question".

Apologies.
Peter

[PeterSt]

With the danger that it obfuscates your other questions and answers to them :

When I make a playlist in XXhighend and play it through, I seem to lose the "library" (it disappears) and it takes close to a minute for the music drive (NAS) before the drive comes back (reappears) into the “library” again. Is this normal? I get the spinning circle and the message that 10586.vhd-RAM is not responding.

I feel I miss some data points here.
What is "library" ? and what means "it disappears" ?
If possible talk in XXHighEnd terms (all for "Library" in there would be Library Area) or Windows terms (where "Library" as such surely exists, but which will not be what you mean (I think).

However, Fred, regarding your last sentence I feel that something really unfamiliar (to me) is going on anyway. Unless that is not a message, but just the title of the now stalled form (XXHighEnd's screen).

Lastly, try to elaborate somewhat about your means of playback. Example : When I start playback and it is in Unattended fashion, there is nothing to see because the whole screen is blanked and next the Coverart of the album appears.
Also, I'd day that you try to bring across that the "Library" comes back only after a long time when playback stops. But this is not what you are saying ...

All 'n all I don't understand much of it all, so please help me a little.

Thanks,
Peter

[fmanheck]

Hi Peter
Sorry about the cut and pasted post I was hoping to keep Dave in the loop.
The Library question was OT and down below in the post so I can see why it could be missed. I'll respond in a new topic. Thanks

Fred

[fmanheck]

With the danger that it obfuscates your other questions and answers to them :

When I make a playlist in XXhighend and play it through, I seem to lose the "library" (it disappears) and it takes close to a minute for the music drive (NAS) before the drive comes back (reappears) into the “library” again. Is this normal? I get the spinning circle and the message that 10586.vhd-RAM is not responding.

I feel I miss some data points here.
What is "library" ? and what means "it disappears" ?
If possible talk in XXHighEnd terms (all for "Library" in there would be Library Area) or Windows terms (where "Library" as such surely exists, but which will not be what you mean (I think).

However, Fred, regarding your last sentence I feel that something really unfamiliar (to me) is going on anyway. Unless that is not a message, but just the title of the now stalled form (XXHighEnd's screen).

Lastly, try to elaborate somewhat about your means of playback. Example : When I start playback and it is in Unattended fashion, there is nothing to see because the whole screen is blanked and next the Coverart of the album appears.
Also, I'd day that you try to bring across that the "Library" comes back only after a long time when playback stops. But this is not what you are saying ...

All 'n all I don't understand much of it all, so please help me a little.

Thanks,
Peter

Can't figure out how to make this a new topic so here goes anyway

My music Root in settings is mapped to my NAS so what comes up in the Library area of XXhighend is a list of all the music files located in the NAS. I drop and drag songs into the Playlist area from the Library area.

I run Min OS and Unattended with Arc Prediction when I play songs (playlists)

When I hit play button, it scrolls down through the list and then everything closes down and music plays (beautifully I might add) screen either has  artwork or a big XX when I don't have artwork

After the playlist is completed playing, the XXhighend screen comes back but in the library area it is either blank or has artwork but it does not have the music list from the NAS.

When I press the L button it takes about a minute (I timed and it was around 45 seconds)for the NAS music list to reappear. During that time it has the Microsoft circle with the blue circumference going around (I interpret that as it is processing) and it says it is not responding. After that all is good.

Is this normal?

I think it also led me to one of the other questions I had:

"It would be really good if there is a way that that the Phasure computer keeps the connection to my NAS (which is my current music software connection but of course the new server as well)when I reboot. My guess is I just don’t know how to do it."

[PeterSt]

OK Fred, here goes :

I think your problems will be over when you go to the Settings Area and in there find the Services and OSD section, and there activate (make red) Keep LAN Services (you will already have that) and also the Persist, next to it.
Now the connection to the NAS won't even drop.

Btw, the culprit will be the Synology NAS in combination with Windows 10. Both are "so so" in my view.

Later, when you have your Music Server PC up and running, you won't have this problem, because then the connection is
a. Windows - Windows for the both PC's (but W7 on the Audio PC will be similary slow);
b. You will have the NAS permanently connected to the Music Server PC, as that is the Music Server ...

So ... does my suggestion help to get rid of the issue ?

Not important but maybe good for "communication" as such and to satisfy my nitpicking :

I drop and drag songs into the Playlist area from the Library area.

Literally this is impossible. So what you will be doing is activating the Library Area ([ L ]), and then drag from the Embedded Explorer in the left pane, to the middle pane which changes into the Playlist Area because of that.

Best regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Can't figure out how to make this a new topic

You are correct that this is not (always) obvious;

Go to one of the boards first. So, be *not* in a topic, like you will be at this moment, reading this post. Back up one step (in this case to the board "Chatter and forum related stuff".
Once in there, you'll see a New Topic link in the top-right of the screen (under Search).

Peter