Anyone like to comment on this NOS DAC

[CoenP]

This is how it is currently wired and plays very nicely. My assumption therefore that somewhere in the system a quality sound card was required. Is this all nonsence?

Ok!

the rme fireface itself looks like a nice but littlebit outdated device to function as a quality two channel audio dac itself but you are not using it that way. Apparently the rme 'soundcard' as you call it has an good working spdif output interface for your quality dac. I see nothing fundamentally wrong with this setup, yet moderner solutions are available. I don't think a 'better' soundcard will improve on this merely because it is "better'. The attention given to the spdif output is usually not clear.

There are these specialized usb to spdif converter devices that can do the spdif trick of the rme in a smaller package and have been developed with audiophiles in mind. As a matter of fact the ifi idsd nano has a specialised spdif output and you can connect your external dac to it. No clue though if this kind of connection enhances your sound, it might or might not.

I may sound like an ifi commercial by now but have no ties whatsoever. I just think its design, engineering and sound are great,especially for the price.

Like i said your DACs spdif interface has its limitations wrt the possibilities of software based optimisation in Xxhe. You need both the higher sampling rates and increased bit numbers and linearity to fully benefit from it (and preferably no in dac sampling like on delta sigma style dacs). So if you really want to move forward this is something to consider.


Regards, Coen

P.s. Obviously you do not need any 'soundcard' when using the usb to spdif device. Just plug it in one of the free usb ports on the pc (and then experiment which port sounds best ).

P.s.2 does your Dell on board soundcard have a SPDIF output? Not all of them do. Maybe it will be worth trying since it is closer to the pc's hardware and xx is likely to have more impact, on the negative side noise on the spdif line is bound to be higher but not neccecarly so.

[Chris V]

This is how it is currently wired and plays very nicely. My assumption therefore that somewhere in the system a quality sound card was required. Is this all nonsence?

Ok!

the rme fireface itself looks like a nice but littlebit outdated device to function as a quality two channel audio dac itself but you are not using it that way. Apparently the rme 'soundcard' as you call it has an good working spdif output interface for your quality dac. I see nothing fundamentally wrong with this setup, yet moderner solutions are available. I don't think a 'better' soundcard will improve on this merely because it is "better'. The attention given to the spdif output is usually not clear.

There are these specialized usb to spdif converter devices that can do the spdif trick of the rme in a smaller package and have been developed with audiophiles in mind. As a matter of fact the ifi idsd nano has a specialised spdif output and you can connect your external dac to it. No clue though if this kind of connection enhances your sound, it might or might not.

I may sound like an ifi commercial by now but have no ties whatsoever. I just think its design, engineering and sound are great,especially for the price.

Like i said your DACs spdif interface has its limitations wrt the possibilities of software based optimisation in Xxhe. You need both the higher sampling rates and increased bit numbers and linearity to fully benefit from it (and preferably no in dac sampling like on delta sigma style dacs). So if you really want to move forward this is something to consider.


Regards, Coen

P.s. Obviously you do not need any 'soundcard' when using the usb to spdif device. Just plug it in one of the free usb ports on the pc (and then experiment which port sounds best ).

P.s.2 does your Dell on board soundcard have a SPDIF output? Not all of them do. Maybe it will be worth trying since it is closer to the pc's hardware and xx is likely to have more impact, on the negative side noise on the spdif line is bound to be higher but not neccecarly so.

Thanks again Coen

So, if I wanted to progress in a good direction I should use a USB cable to connect to a DAC with USB input such as the iFi.  The Fireface 400 can then be sold on E bay as no soundcard is needed with this configuration. 

The USB DAC will have phono connections to connect to audio amplifier.

Is this about the best configuration to go for, or is there any other approach you would recommend (other than Peters DAC which is a bit too expensive for me at present).

[CoenP]

Nope, looks like a fine plan. There a a lot of usb dacs in any price segment, so you'll have to do some homework on the internet. The positive side of this is the fierce competition leading to better base quality for the dollar all the time.

I'd advice to look for a high as possible samplerate capability, like 384khz or more. Personally i do not value the DSD capability since it adds little if anything to sq and its catalog is allways also available in normal format (pcm), but it may be a nice to have feature.

The other thing is the pc. Some xx settings resulting in good sound can be really tough on the processor. Even my 4core machine is not really up to the task of delivering the bits on time consistently. Today you can make it really complicated with pc setup but if you renew make shure to step into the i7 range for the audio pc.

Regards, Coen

[Chris V]

Nope, looks like a fine plan. There a a lot of usb dacs in any price segment, so you'll have to do some homework on the internet. The positive side of this is the fierce competition leading to better base quality for the dollar all the time.

I'd advice to look for a high as possible samplerate capability, like 384khz or more. Personally i do not value the DSD capability since it adds little if anything to sq and its catalog is allways also available in normal format (pcm), but it may be a nice to have feature.

The other thing is the pc. Some xx settings resulting in good sound can be really tough on the processor. Even my 4core machine is not really up to the task of delivering the bits on time consistently. Today you can make it really complicated with pc setup but if you renew make shure to step into the i7 range for the audio pc.

Regards, Coen

Good man Coen. I feel like I am getting somewhere now.

I have been reading reviews on the iFi range and its all very favourable.

You mentioned the nano kit which is also the cheapest. I guess that moving up to the micro range is better still. I don't need headphone facilities and reading some of the specs gives me a headache  .

Ignoring cost for the time being, what would be the best USB DAC to fit my needs.

I also see there are USB cable power supplies, mains power supplies, and audio perfect USB enhancers, so clearly an upgrade path is opened.

[PeterSt]

I have been smiling a lot, reading the last posts ...

Apparantly time has gone so fast that us "modern youngsters" have forgotten (or never have known) how this world was constructed.
And I am talking maybe 5 years ago ...

A FireFace is a sound card because ... it just is.
It is by the grace (is that Dutch ?) of it containing D/A converters.

Something like a FireFace was used back in the days (now think 10-11 years ago) because, well, uhm ... I came up with it.

It extended the SPDIF connection from the PC to more close to the DAC. Well, sort of;
Think like the Firewire connection being regarded (!!) harmless and extendable to xx(x) feet, so your SPDIF connection (which can't take that length) now always being close to the DAC. Small SPDIF cable - done.

Notice that USB devices did not exist at that time.

Also notice that the FireFace these days also exists with USB connection and things get more vague.

Chris is a bit more correct than Coen in thinking that a PC needed a sound card and the Fireface (but many more of such devices) was just that. So remember, supposed you don't have analogue out on the MoBo (and that sure did not need to be there), where is the soundcard ?
It is not there. And so a FireFace sure was (and is).

Now USB DACs start to emerge and things get more vague;
What was all new is that now a PC did not need a sound card any more !
And to the letter this is true. And that the USB DAC exhibits as a sound device - not different from how a real sound card (or FireFace alike) would do it, is even more obfuscating (mind you, it was also for me back at the time).

The point is that all got more transparant and which is exactly the reason why we don't see through it these days.
For example, when you have a USB DAC, it can connect directly to the PC, or to a FireFace with USB output (not sure whether they can do that these days, but I sure have an alike which can) or to an "Interface" which serves the purpose of actually connecting legacy DACs (SPDIF-in only), but which generally are versatile enough to have e.g. USB-in and also USB-out and ...
well, it does not matter, because all connects everywhere.

N.b.: It does matter because the PC can only control the first-connected device for buffer sizes etc. (that is, as far as I know).

The sort of sad thing is that if one misses only the past five years, he doesn't understand one bit (pun) of it any more.

For me too it isn't always clear yet;
It was only last week that someone wanted a NOS1a but with SPDIF-In. I right away said "sure !, possible !".
Then I started thinking ...
The SPDIF-In is "on" the USB Interface. Sure it will work.
But will it work without USB connection to a PC ?
haha, I don't think so.
And I am mot even sure.

Peter

[Chris V]

Peter

Thanks for restoring my sanity and making me feel very old at the same time 

I knew I had put my system together with advice from you and Bert because with electronics and computers I need expert guidance.

So today I wake up in 2015 and must readjust to a Hi Fi world that has shifted on its axis.

All is not lost as a pristine Fireface 400 seems to be fetching reasonable money on E Bay and will help finance a change to a USB DAC.

I'm not sure I even dare to ask this question but both USB 2 and USB 3 exist. How does this factor in to the decisions?

[CoenP]

Right you are Peter, I also paradigm shifted along with the developments from SPDIF in the time of the CD player to a Firewire 'high res' DAC and to an USB one in the PC era. God knows what's next (Ethernet?).
Also even tapped the I2S from the source when it was en vogue in the diy world (90s). That idea seems to be echoed again in a recent commercial implementation (Pink Faun) or was the first non-USB NOS like that?

As for USB2 vs USB3, the data rates are well within spec yet there seems to be a preference for USB3 on the PC side. I've to catch up here since I don't know if it will matter on the Dac side. I would not consider this to be very important on the basis of reason alone.

regards, Coen 

[PeterSt]

Guys,

Re the USB2 vs USB3 ...
I don't think USB3 DAC's exist. Partly this will be because it is not necessary (USB2 is fast enough), partly this will be because someone has to make the drivers and it probably is too difficult for any party to start such a project.
But I don't follow much regarding this, so maybe I am wrong.

Chris, what Coen responded to, is that *everything* matters and thus also the USB3 interface of a PC sounds different than the USB2 interface. Or a separate interface card - again sounds different. The stories are too long, I'm afraid.
Indeed the trend seems to be that UDB3 sounds better than USB2. But mind you, the DAC is always USB2 so no USB3 speed is utilized/used anyway.

... And then to think that the above "info" actually already is from 3-4 years or so ago. At this moment we all take it for granted ...

Regards,
Peter (who also must be precautious not to get rusty)

[CoenP]

THE ifi has an USB3 interface receptor plug. Don't know if it really supports usb3, since this is irrelevant for the data transfer. since USB is backwards compatible it'll work with any USB cable.

Regards, Coen

[Chris V]

I did go over to visit Dr. Slawa Roschkow at SW1X yesterday and was VERY VERY impressed.

He is a Hi Fi fanatic and an electronics genius just beginning to market some of the stuff he has developed (start up company) He certainly has no affiliation to any Chinese company.

He has three systems set up in three dedicated rooms, all of which were wonderful.

Everything was valve based 300Bs, 2A3s and the best system used open baffles speakers with a full compliment of field coil drivers. Silver wiring was everywhere including mains cables.

If this is old technology, then I love it.

I am not trying to promote this man, but in hindsight we gave him a bit of a hard time on here and I just wanted to restore the balance.

The biggest compliment I can pay Showa is that I have not met a person of such qualities since I met a young Peter Qvortrup many many years ago, and he went on to develop the Audionote brand.

[PeterSt]

Hi there Chris,

To hopefully set things straight :

I don't think anyone really has given anyone else a hard time. But might you judge the "old stuff" as giving someone a hard time ... I'm afraid that's the wrong thing to think. Because remember what I said a couple of times : it still can sound good.
That it cannot meet today's technology (if it were about the filtering) is just a truth and if the other party deems it necessary to counteract that with a "but that is useless anyway" then all what counts is our ears.
And that is just what you did.

I like to explicitly add that it was me who removed (or obfuscated) the link to Mr Roschkow's website as it was also me who deliberately did not post that link (but I did link to the eBay page). You probably haven't noticed, but I obfuscated that link because it was you yourself who -in my view !- was too negative ("too" in my book means : unjustified - without really knowing).

Last thing - and that is to show how complicated communication can be :
What is not in this topic is your kind of "quest" (put elsewhere) to Upsample/Filter etc. and everything what XXHighEnd could do for you; a kind of prerequisite. This, obviously, should droop from at least my responses. The TDA1543 just can not do that and with that should never be a good choice for you.

BUT (!!!)

Chris, you could be too theoretical here; following some pack perhaps. Look :

of such qualities since I met a young Peter Qvortrup many many years ago

If that is you real stihl, then please adhere *that*.
What did I say ?
N-O-S
But now the real thing, meaning no upsampling/filtering etc., exactly as PQ adheres that (btw, to my recollection this was long after Audio Note existed, but alas).

My cautious conclusion :
You don't want any 24/768000 blahblah input on a DAC. You want 16/44.1 - period. It is what your idea is about how digital audio should work, because it *is* a way of thinking (seriously).
That I proceeded on that with the same ideas and especially the idea that it could be improved, well ... that costs extra $$ (apparently).

I am not trying to promote this man

Of course you are. And you know what ? I personally can not think of a reason why not to. But to be very honest, I don't see a single difference with *any* of our customers because we all - no one excluded - look honestly for the very best (ok, against our $).
I saw that Mr Roschkov signed up for the forum and I did not know what to expect, nor why that happened in the first place. Possibly he wanted to counteract some of what has been said in here. Well, not necessary (I hope I just showed that). But, perfectly allowed. So Slawa, please do ! Warm welcome !

I hope all is well now.
And Chris, very good of you to be so honest (with your corrections). Appreciated !

Peter

[Chris V]

I saw that Mr Roschkov signed up for the forum and I did not know what to expect, nor why that happened in the first place. Possibly he wanted to counteract some of what has been said in here. Well, not necessary (I hope I just showed that). But, perfectly allowed. So Slawa, please do ! Warm welcome !

I hope all is well now.
And Chris, very good of you to be so honest (with your corrections). Appreciated !

Peter

Well, its a very small world on the internet. I am glad that Slawa found himself here as we spoke a bit about my use of your software.

My feeling is that all people that stray from the mainstream will  get criticism at some time - how many times have we read in forums that all cables 'sound' the same. This is more so, if one has never met someone and has to rely on limited information.

You and Slawa have a lot in common, though you have taken divergent paths you are both aiming towards audio Nirvana.

Long may it continue.

And Slawa, I have only just been told you are here so my response above was not an attempt to ingratiate myself with you

[SW1XAD]

Greetings to Chris and Peter,

Just wanted say thank you for evaluating my audio design without any prejudice.

I am also feeling honored to be compared with Peter Qvortrup. I have a deep respect for him as a character, business person and for his courage of going against the wind of the audio industry. I know that there are many haters out there but that is fully justified given the success.

I would like to add a couple of words about the design of the SW1X DAC 01. The most overlooked issue that we are addressing in our designs is the impedance mismatch between the components. If the output and input impedances are not matched, the mismatch acts like a filter in the audible frequency spectrum, where in most cases low frequencies are lost. On top of that, the consecutive stages in the audio amplification chain loose the drive and the dynamics irreversibly. The earlier the impedance mismatch in the chain, the worse it is. The most detrimental impedance mismatch in digital sources known to me is between the digital transport and the S/PDIF receiver of a DAC but that is a different topic for now.

The issue of impedance mismatch is critical in 2 places of a DAC design: A) Between the current out of DAC chip after the I/V conversion and B) Between the first amplification output stage and the preamp/power amp input. Most common approach in the TDA1543 DAC implementation is to use a passive shunt resistor as I/V converter. This approach works fine but has some drawbacks: the shunt resistor worsens the impedance mismatch further and it takes energy away, therefore some of the dynamics are irreversibly lost and all subsequent stage are lacking the drive.

In order to avoid the mismatch in impedances, the output impedance needs to be ideally be multiples time lower than the input impedance. However, the current out DAC chips such as TDA1543 has high impedance output by nature but likes to see a low impedance input of the next stage. That is not happening if the next input stage is a valve since valves have high impedance input by nature.
In order to minimise the mismatch, many designs are using multiple TDA1543 DAC chips in parallel in order to lower the output impedance before the I/V stage. The drawback here is that voltage output after the conversion becomes relatively high, actually already high enough to saturate some of the preamp inputs. Therefore most DAC designs stop here and have no output stage. However, that solution causes the problem of impedance mismatch in point B) especially when valves and passive preamps are used in between.

We at SW1X Audio Design, on the other hand addressing the point A) by using a single transistor that does the job of I/V conversion, lowers the output impedance after the I/V stage and preserves the dynamics. Plus this approach allows us to use a simple but elegant class A, zero feedback valve output stage with low output impedance, which addresses impedance mismatch issue in the point B). On top of that the circuit remains elegant and simple and makes the music come alive with incredible analogue smoothness.

Best regards,

Slawa

[CoenP]

I just ran into this little machine:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/metrum2/1.html

No filtering inside, supports up to 384kHz with USB. Price in tthe order of 1k euro/dollar.

This is the kind of DAC that will suit the virtues of XXHighEnd well.

Regards, Coen

[nik.d]

Hi Coen,

Real 'poor man's' choice would be Soekris R2R DAC

US : http://soekris.com/products/audio-products/dam1021.html
EU : http://soekris.eu/shop/dac_modules_dam1021_en/

(With something better than suggested 'Amanero' USB/I2S receiver)

Rgds,
George