Intona High Speed USB 2.0 galvanic isolation

[PeterSt]

Hey all, back again ...

Today is the 4th day into the newly received Intona Highspeed USB Isolator, but I could just as well have reported after day 1. Quite unusual that would be - such a confidence ...
But I had to wait because I was finishing some XXHighEnd version (2.04, just put up now).

So what happened ?
After my initial trying (briefly written about in this topic) - nothing much. I never heard about it any more from anywhere either. Until ...
A week ago.

Someone on a forum elsewhere (CA) had referred to this topic, Mr Daniel (CEO from Intona) responded and was curious why I never got back to Intona with my "failing" device and again someone else with the name of Alain pointed me at the thread over there.
And then I saw that possibly it is not the best in all situations to be polite and don't ask money back at least. My main "problem" was that I received the very first Intona Isolator, which I wasn't even aware of. I started to feel sorry that I did not help to solve an issue ...

So I contacted Daniel and 10+ emails back and forth later, last Monday I received a new Isolator.

First off : this one works. I mean, it doesn't stop working by means of getting warmer or whatever the cause was.
Secondly, *if* it would stop working, I'd throw it in the fridge or whatever, and would use it happily next day again.


I have a new strange term for it : Infinity.
Side note : More often I have been talking about e.g. highs being able to go "infitely loud" without hurting and while being "good" in the first place. So that kind of Infinity I mean. But now broader ...

I'd even dare to go as far as saying that SQ is "infinitely good" as in "the repairer of all". So yes, it is like it repairs everything which needed repairing. Yesterday I was as far as thinking that even W10 10586.0 would sound good because of it, but I did not want to tryit at Christmas Eve.
But OK, "Infinitely good" is a too strange one, so it has to come down to "Infinitely This" and "Infinitely That". But now it is hard to find the words (hey, that happens to me more often, lately).

It seriously feels like : we have done everything and all in so many years of time, but what's inherently wrong is just that and although you can still (audibly) improve, it is that one thing which is always sauced over all. It can't be avoided or eliminated because it is just there.
And then one day you get rid of that thing after all. BANG. And *because* you applied so many already and the "thing" is now so profoundly bad, all is now Infinitely better.
Yes, I think I am getting there now. So not Infinitely Good (that would be too stupid to say) but Infinitely Better. Yes, that would be allowed I think.

Don't ask me how it works because my Phasure NOS1a already was isolated, but I feel that the ground potential at (in) the DAC's side now is 0:0 (at both sides of the isolation, I mean). And ... it should. Think like this :

Previously there was +56V (or whatever) of potential at the input side (of USB). Behind it, there's 0V because of the Isolation. Effect ? Radation. At least that's what I have always been saying and thinking (about). The Voltage just can't disappear to my belief and thus it radiates.
There is much (much) more to say about this, but too complicated and too unsure. Anyway, that radiation should now be in/round the Intona box which is 15cm from the PC in my situation (I chose to have it close to the PC without real reason (eh, at first ). Maybe later I'll build a receiving antenna to move that (assumed) radation out of the way as well.

A couple of crucial things to additionally mention :

As a #1 customer I was offered to have the leds not blinking (I read later that the both normally blink at a rate of 14Hz). I grabbed that offer with both hands.
Does this help the good SQ ? I think it very well can. And well, at least you wouldn't take the risk, do you ? So I asked Daniel whether every "Audio" oriented customer was allowed to ask for this, and Daniel answered Yes.

Without asking, I received the Industrial version (my #1 was the normal version). This is - from the top of my head - a version with more robust USB connectors (they really are to my perception as it almost takes two persons to remove the (B-side ) cable form it) and with 2.5KV of isolation instead of 1KV (I'd say this fact in itself is not important). But since the Industrial version is 100 euros more expensive I
a. thought that this maybe wasn't useful to now "test" because what about the normal version which you might like to obtain (it's about the $ for some);
b. thought that it was a bit odd to receive something of 100 euros more of value while I didn't even need to send back the old one.
Surprise : the Industrial version has received more attention to the timing and some more stuff like heftier chips (the 2.5KV isolation thing). Worth a 100 more ? of course, when this is the result now. But please notice that I can not test it. It's even so that the other one (the normal one) doesn't work (for too long) but the reason is unclear at this moment. Well, maybe that later the firmware has been changed and the (Daniel offered) reason to begin with to try another one.
Lastly there's some inside information which makes me say that indeed you better get the Industrial version.
So that's something like 350 euros including 19% of VAT for those liable to VAT and otherwise it's ~295 euros.
Be careful, because the Intona ordering page shows the price including VAT for those countries liable to VAT (and when you're a company the VAT is deducted from the listed price).
Hey, it now looks like I have financial interests in Intona eh ? Ok, I could (resell the isolator) but I rather take distance and be passionately positive instead.

By now many of you use the Clairixa USB cable, like I do myself. But careful, I now use two. Have to.
The one at the PC side is 15cm (which btw is a bit too short) and don't ask be what happens when we put a normal piece of wire in that place. For me this was an easy decision, as I just ordered someone to make me that 15cm. But for you ...
I feel I can't ask 200 - (8 (x 10cm) x 3 euros) 24 = 176 euros for 20 cm of stupid USB cable, but that would be the official price. And then always that shipping ...
But let's say that for 20cm I ask 100 euros and then think that we can efficiently produce them because they are all of the same length.

Anyway ...

What shall I say ... Not recommended ?

No no no ! Highly recommened now !

Regards,
Peter

[AlainGr]

Wow, what a day To get the new XXHighEnd version, then read the latest post about the revised Intona USB Isolator (industrial)...

I know that is not the wisest thing in my actual situation (money wise), but Christmas time surely has something to do about my decision to say "What the heck" and order the industrial unit

You have a strong voice Peter I can hear you from my (not so) cold part of the world

Kind regards,

Alain

[Arjan]

Yes, I ordered the Intona! So Peter put me on the list for the 20 cm Clairixa.
Regards, Arjan

[PeterSt]

Hi all,

Two general remarks :

1.
Daniel told me that the wish for the non-blinking led can be announced in the Paypal process. Literally I was told this :

if customers drop us a mail or a note on the Paypal process, they will get it with no additional costs.

To make it more convenient for Intona, I would use the "Paypal note" (no idea how, but it will be obvious, I suppose).

2.
It seems a good idea to ship the small USB cable together with the "RAM" Disk. The timing for the both will be OK for that. It is only that the process itself of both making the disks and the cables is relatively time consuming (I'd say we can't produce more than 4 sets a day, once we started with it).

Best regards,
Peter

[CoenP]

Hi Peter,

Great tweak! I wondered how it's powered. By the incoming USB wire?

Regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

Something else :

I think we need to make the USB cable longer than 20cm. So mine is 15cm and by heart I thought that 20cm would be fine, but it depends on the situation where to put the Intona box. In my case it wouldn't even be enough.

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

I have placed order for the Intona USB isolator so I would need the 20 cm Clarixa too.

You could ship the Clarixa with the Base disk.

If all agree maybe 30 cm should be good enough.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

I wondered how it's powered. By the incoming USB wire?

Hey Coen,

Since there's nothing else, yes, must be.

And/but as I told earlier in the topic : I can't guess how that works on the other side of the isolation. So, power is clearly transferred as well, but what I still don't get is how the chip(-part) on the other (clean) side of the isolation is powered. You'd say "take the USB power of the dirty (incoming) side", but *that* is not the idea with full galvanic isolation. Well, that is what I "learned".

I suppose that with a somewhat more "difficult thinking" I would be able to make up a completely different means of galvanic isolation, but I guess I'd soon run into the problem of not being fully isolated.
So your NOS1a is fully isolated, but the clean side is powered by that same clean side (while the dirty side is powered by the dirty side). And just saying : would I mix these up (turn the both around for powering) then all would still work as usual, but now without being isolated. Also, whether isolated or not is not even easy to test. One can try to look at the results (like noisy changes into no-noise like how I did that indirectly with the jitter measurements), or one can "see" the difference in ground potential between the two sides, which isn't even easy to do well. But here too, if you first can proove the no-difference while with isolation the difference is there (like my 56V example), it has to work. If after isolation the difference is still 0V it doesn't tell much, because the "back door" might connect back to the front door (which in the end is an error again, because that shouldn't happen we you try to isolate something).

This is really all not so easy ...

Regards,
Peter

[Arjan]

In the CA forum discussion on the Intona I read more about this as well.
Also someone tested it with different usb cables, it seems that Intona should be close to the dac?
But with the short Clairixa we can test that our selfs.

Regards, Arjan

[PeterSt]

If all agree maybe 30 cm should be good enough.

Maybe people currently owning the Clairixa (knowing its degree of stiffness) can tell what their minimum required length is ? I just have no idea as it depends on where the PC is and where the box can be.
The box weighs about 100 grams (thus really not much) and measures 13.5 x 9 x 4 cm.

Peter

[toddn]

Hi Peter,

Please put me down to ship a short Clarixa with my OS RAM drive. I think 30-40cm would be good. If any of us want to put it on the same shelve as the NOS1a, it would be long enough to set the isolator between the front two legs of DAC.

Thanks,
Todd

[KnB]

Hi Peter,

20cm cable for me. 

[PeterSt]

Also someone tested it with different usb cables, it seems that Intona should be close to the dac?

Arjan, that is not how I read things. Someone just put it close to the DAC, used a connector/adapter in order to avoid "cable" and a few posts further down the line he admits that such adapters destroy the probably carefully created impedance (this latter is his opinion or idea).

Let's keep in mind that what I tested is my test, in my situation and is thus a sort of "your guarantee" because it can be your situation.
Far more important, in my view, is my idea about the radiation, now not being close to the DAC. But that too, is only an estimate because I seek explanations for the (way) better sound. Remember, your NOS1a already *is* isolated, so it can't be the isolation (yeah, laugh). A few options I can think of :

1. Mentioned radiation now being in another (less harmful) place;
2. The USB noise being harmful to the receiver side of the DAC, that now being (more) clean (don't ask me how the "worse" receiver operation influences SQ in a bad way);
3. The (output) impedance of the PC being corrected right away (but connect Intona close to the PC), that benefiting all of the USB cable length.

In my personal view, #1 is likely, #2 can be in order but I don't know how, #3 can be of vast importance.

With all that, do notice that world wide I can not find any proof of whatever element in the technical chain (like MoBo manufacturer, USB cable manufacturer) paying very explicitly attention to the 90 Ohm impedance, required for best operation. I even wonder (without trying to be negative in any means !) whether Intona explicitly "generates" the 90 Ohms (which would be 2x 45 Ohms). If you look at the USB connectors in general, it can already go wrong very easily. Compare with the construction of coax connectors and you see what I mean. There ALL is done to imply the rated impedance. But that is another world - highly dependent on proper communication. USB is ... well, a toy ?
Anyway, I am contradicting myself with the "lousy USB output" from a MoBo on one side, and Intona not being able to deal with that properly as well, on the other. So the real message logically should be :
Yeah, the MoBo output undoubtedly s*cks, and Intona corrects that super nicely.
But I really can't know.

And to make it more complicated once again :
Do you use the MoBo output ? I don't. I use a Silverstone USB card. Many of us do. Why was that ? I forgot ...
haha

Peter

[PeterSt]

If any of us want to put it on the same shelve as the NOS1a, it would be long enough to set the isolator between the front two legs of DAC.

Hi Todd, thank you. But see my previous post ...
In my view it would NOT be a good idea to place the Intona close to the DAC because of the (by me expected) radition.

Best regards,
Peter

[AlainGr]

Peter,

When you mention "radiation", I suppose you mean that the Intona is not built to hold them since it is not isolated with a material that can contain it ? This of course, as a consequence of cutting the ground voltage ?

Alain