Are audiophiles, the really crazy ones, an endangered species?

[juanpmar]

Are audiophiles, the really crazy ones, an endangered species? When I say "the really crazy ones" I mean especially those who follow this forum. There seems to be no difficulty enough to stop us. As an example see the last thread "And now my sound is SCARY". But something else strikes me. Just for curiosity, have you noticed in the age of the forum members? Ok, I´m one of the older if not the oldest one but from what I've seen, the average age is over 40, probably some more. What does this mean? Some time ago, even today, in the audiophile world (and in the other one too) the age was associated with purchasing power, that is, one could not afford a sound at a certain level if it was not spending a significant sum on each component. Even today with computer music you have to spend big money, for the average person, in some components (speakers, etc.). Things are changing a bit with the arrival of computer music, at least some components and software, are not so expensive. But that's not either what caught my attention. The really funny thing is the madness to pursue the best possible sound until almost exhaustion. No limit is in the mind of these crazy audiophiles and that´s what really define us. Some people, some mature person like me, still are trying to get that perfect sound desperately. Were we educated differently? What will happen with the new audiophile generations? Will they fight so hard or settle for less? What are we, dreamers or sick?
In case we are sick, I hope we are not in terminal phase, I hope we still have many years to come of enjoyment and with the pleasure to share it.
Oh, and I also hope that young people at some point feel the same enthusiasm.

Thanks folks,

Juan

[PeterSt]

So Juan, and how do you do THAT ...

This morning, when I was planning to spend a few posts about that SCARY thing, I at first thought about our ages (so yours too) and how we plainly may get too old to comprehend. Maybe I just do fine, but that won't last forever either.

I think that you beat around the bush a bit, but your subject is deep down the same, I am quite sure.

Anyway I wanted to start a nice topic about that (focus on age). But you beat me to it.

So yes, many of us were close to 10 years younger when "we" started this computer stuff and for many that is difficult to begin with. Today, if I try to create solutions for the better, I seriously think about this additional handicap explicitly. No need to close our eyes for this or be embarrassed.

Ok, I´m one of the older

No; I dare claim that most if us are close to 60. Plus what you don't know is that those who are even older do not post on forums, but sure own a NOS1(a) and such.

Only a very few are really younger and as far as I can tell this is "just 40's". But 10 years ago that was 30 just the same and I actually know of one ...

But crazy we are anyway !

Best regards,
Peter

[christoffe]

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/129/10/2528

[rakeshpoorun]

Are audiophiles, the really crazy ones, an endangered species? When I say "the really crazy ones" I mean especially those who follow this forum. There seems to be no difficulty enough to stop us. As an example see the last thread "And now my sound is SCARY". But something else strikes me. Just for curiosity, have you noticed in the age of the forum members? Ok, I´m one of the older if not the oldest one but from what I've seen, the average age is over 40, probably some more. What does this mean? Some time ago, even today, in the audiophile world (and in the other one too) the age was associated with purchasing power, that is, one could not afford a sound at a certain level if it was not spending a significant sum on each component. Even today with computer music you have to spend big money, for the average person, in some components (speakers, etc.). Things are changing a bit with the arrival of computer music, at least some components and software, are not so expensive. But that's not either what caught my attention. The really funny thing is the madness to pursue the best possible sound until almost exhaustion. No limit is in the mind of these crazy audiophiles and that´s what really define us. Some people, some mature person like me, still are trying to get that perfect sound desperately. Were we educated differently? What will happen with the new audiophile generations? Will they fight so hard or settle for less? What are we, dreamers or sick?
In case we are sick, I hope we are not in terminal phase, I hope we still have many years to come of enjoyment and with the pleasure to share it.
Oh, and I also hope that young people at some point feel the same enthusiasm.

Thanks folks,

Juan

Hi Juan,

Very thoughful post as always. You are, if one were to try to pigeon hole you, a humanist and an optimist.

I have three wonderful children aged 2, 7 and 8 and I have of course wondered about what sort of legacy I will leave them one day when it comes to my enormous music collection, and audio paraphernalia that's still left, although I have tried to rationalise it over the past few years.

I think that our generation, and by implication older ones before us, got it wrong because audio as an industry has become so led by commercial interests and is so dominated by powers in the media world (reviewers, audio publications and the like), that there is little point to try and save it as it exists.

My personal, therefore subjective opinion about this was made in an earlier post where I wrote:

One truth which is rarely voiced and admitted, is that ironically and ultimately, the problem lies more with us the electorate of that corrupt and tainted industry, because we in many different ways behave in a manner which encourages these crazy notions such that speakers consisting of 5 drivers in a nice looking enclosure will easily cost upward of $50,000, and pre-amps can cost north of $10000. I feel so bad about this industry that I will make sure that of my many interests and hobbies, this is the one that I will not pass on to my children. They are welcome to my ATCs (the horns speakers are too much hassle for them) and I wish to god that's all the interest they have in audio. If they continue with the piano as they have been doing for the past two years, and develop a habit of going to regular live concerts of classical music, and if they need to get some audio equipment to replace the Grace Design or ATC I send them off with, I know who I will recommend they go to.

This is a unique and quite tragic hobby I find, where although I do enjoy it, I would not wish it on my children and for that matter, on anyone who has a choice.
...

Best regards
Rakesh

Does the fact that some of us are "crazy audiophiles," as you put it, and would go to any length to squeeze the last atom of performance, make us more noble and our struggle a source of pride and inspiration for generations to come? The tenor of your argument seems to be that what we do is a good thing, and is a legacy that we should be proud to hand down.

I think you have made an interesting point and in an ideal world that's what we would want. So I would like to comment, again keeping in mind that this is just an opinion, that I do not share this sentiment. The industry has obviously been suffering immensely for years and you can see its reaction in the proliferation of overpriced equipment everywhere. There is an interesting artcle that defends the pricing structure and which receives the support of an economist, but you will not be surprised to see that I disagree:

http://www.dagogo.com/the-economics-of-high-end-audio-equipment-separating-fact-from-fiction

I do not want to take on the views expressed in that article though because otherwise we would be here the whole day.

But in short, my main objection is that most of the equipment around which hype is created in reviews and magazines that they perpetuate this inequality that good playback systems are for the rich. Music is so important to all cultures that it is a shame that this has happened. The best thing that has happened is MP3, itunes, music downloading and the internet. It democratises music, makes it available readily to all. The day when children will be encouraged by all parents to raise themselves to the challenges and wonders of more "difficult" music, such as classical music, will be the day when we will have made some real progress.

Our pursuits, fascinating and interesting and rewarding as they might be, amount to no more than the perturbation that the great river of history feels when we put our hand in it in the hope of deviating its course. It is hopeless. It will not register and I am glad that this is so.

On the other hand, Juan, I also agree with you when you talk about the power that lies behind computer audio, but in my mind more precisely the power of the internet to make the musical history of our civilisation more easily accessible to all, irrespective of wealth, class, nationality, colour, race, gender, and indeed, culture.

You are a wonderful person Juan and I feel better whenever I read your posts here. But I do not agree with you. I hope you do not mind? Some people do not seem to be happy with my posts and have written to complain to Peter. I hope I am allowed to have an opinion and to voice it. It is only an opinion after all.

Kind regards
Rakesh

[rakeshpoorun]

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/129/10/2528

Hi Joachim,

You are right. And thanks for linking that interesting article that I read years ago. Oliver Sacks is a most erudite man and as a neuroscientist, his work shows how humans have this special relationship with music, that patients who suffer from debilitating diseases of the mind such as Alzheimer's (which we all know is becoming more prevalent amongst older generations) can still relate powerfully to music. His learning and passion for his field shine through the article.

Medically of course, there is another relationship between age and hearing, which impacts our enjoyment and ability to appreciate music, and is a relevant factor for all of us here who are not so young anymore. We should enjoy it while we can (see extract below, full article to be found here, http://patient.info/health/hearing-loss-of-older-people-presbyacusis):

Most people over the age of 60 develop some hearing loss. The severity can vary greatly from person to person.
What is presbyacusis?
Presbyacusis (sometimes written presbycusis) is the medical term for hearing loss that occurs in older people as they age. It is the most common cause for hearing loss in people aged over 55.
The hearing loss comes on gradually, often over several years. Both ears are usually affected equally. It is usually high-pitched (high-frequency) sounds that are most affected. For example, you may find it difficult to hear the telephone ringing or birds singing. You may not be aware of your hearing loss at first. You may only realise that your hearing is becoming poor when you have difficulty using the telephone or following a conversation in a group or noisy room. Friends or family may comment about the television being loud or having to repeat themselves more often to people with hearing loss.
Why does it happen?
Most people will tend to lose some of their hearing to a greater or lesser extent as they become older. Over half of people over the age of 60 have some degree of hearing loss. The exact cause of presbyacusis is not known. The inner ear (cochlea) contains nerve cells that convert sound into nervous impulses which are sent to the brain. It is thought that most people develop presbyacusis because these nerve cells don't seem to work as well and they become damaged.
It is probably a number of different things that contribute to this damage and it seems to be part of the ageing process. A number of things have been suggested as possible causes for the damage:
•   Arteriosclerosis - hardening and narrowing of the blood vessels that supply blood to the cochlea, which means that less blood gets through. Heart disease, high blood pressure or diabetes may also make the situation worse.
•   Exposure to noise over the years.
•   Exposure to harmful chemicals produced by body cells over the years.
•   Exposure to certain types of medication over the years.
•   Smoking.
•   Being overweight.
•   There may also be some inherited (hereditary) reasons for presbyacusis.
When a sufficient number of nerve cells are damaged, this is when you notice hearing loss. Most people do not go completely deaf. The severity of the hearing loss varies from person to person of the same age.
Can it be prevented?
There is little that can be done to prevent this age-related process. It is likely that being exposed to a lot of loud noise over long periods may make hearing loss worse when you are older. For example, if you work in a noisy factory, you should wear ear protection. It is also advisable to avoid excessive noise during leisure time (such as listening to loud music for long periods). See the Noise Association website under 'References' at the end of this leaflet for guidance as to safe sound limits.
A healthy lifestyle may help to reduce the likelihood of hearing loss later. For example, exercising healthily, eating healthily, and not smoking. This is partly because an unhealthy lifestyle increases the risks of conditions such as diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure and diseases of the blood vessels. These conditions in turn seem to increase the risk of developing hearing loss.
Plugs of earwax may make any hearing loss worse. Therefore, from time to time it may be worthwhile having your ears checked for wax. Wax can usually be cleared out to allow the hearing to be as good as possible...



I know. Not good news. Definitely, enjoy it while we can.

Best regards
Rakesh

[Robert]

I'm 60 in a month, half deaf(industrial noise) and ears full off wax, but boy I can still hear a change in music when a change or "upgrade" is imposed.

The main issue for others(wife) is I tend to run my sound 85 to 95 db.

Still in attending a recent Beth Hart concert my ears were subjected to 110db no distortion. Well I only lasted one song and left.

Interesting most of the crowd were over 50 I can only assume they and the sound engineer are deaf only moving to vibrations.

Can't even think about what young peoples ears will be like in the future being subjected to loud music all day and night.

We need to train more audiophiles my ipod kids do hear the difference between MP3's and 16/44 Wav files and appreciate what a better system can do.

Robert

[christoffe]

The main issue for others(wife) is I tend to run my sound 85 to 95 db.

Hi,

more than 85dBA will damage ............. !

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/PermissibleExposureTime.htm


Joachim

[Scroobius]

Hi Juan,

Are audiophiles, the really crazy ones?

Very good question!! - but you restrict it to only those that follow this forum - in my mind it applies to all "audiophiles" for the simple reason we all compulsively seek improvements in sound. Actually compulsive only starts to describe it. We are all totally nuts!! Having said that - I must point out that I am not criticising audiophiles after all I am one of the very worst .

Are we crazy??? Hell yes, absolutely. Why? because no one needs great sound quality to appreciate music. And I really would doubt the sanity of anyone who insisted otherwise.

About 3 years ago I was lucky to meet a local guy who has the most incredible knowledge of music - all types, you cannot believe the range of music he knows. I am humbled by his knowledge of music. And incredibly he lives just a few hundred metres from me. Luckily we get on well - so most Thursday's we have a music evening alternating between his place and mine.

There have been evenings when he has played music at his place when I literally have been moved to tears (OK now I have admitted it ha ha). Great evenings when the mood was right and the music was sublime (and OK the beer and wine flowed). And how was the sound quality of his system? answer - totally and absolutely irrelevant. I could not have enjoyed it more no matter where I was listening even if it was the Albert Hall (actually SQ is not good there but never mind you get my drift).

Over that time I have improved my system massively and spent loads of $$$$$. So if I had to go back 3 years knowing what I know now and if I was given the choice of EITHER having the improved SQ OR having the range of music I have been introduced to - what would I choose? Easy answer - the music - every time no question.

Recently I visited my poor old Dad who sadly has just had to move into an old folks home. At 87 his best days are past and is not able to communicate as well as he once could. But he is in a great place and amazingly someone in the home has an interest in old record players and old 78's. They are all over the place. It is a treasure trove. So last time I visited I dusted off an old wind up gramophone that had not been used for years, found a key to wind it up and played some wartime music (actually Joe Loss!!) - you should have seen the effect on my old Dad he was tapping his feet and arms a big smile on his face and then a tear when all the war time memories came flooding back (actually maybe that tear thing follows in the family). Seriously, it was a very moving moment and one that I will not forget. Really it was the only moment that something really got through to him during the visit.

And would the effect have been any different listening on my system? nah no chance and probably in the context of that moment it would have been less.

So are we audiophiles nuts? hell yes!!
Is it a great hobby? hell yes!!

But sometimes I really do regret that I spend too much time tweaking and chasing down SQ improvements when I could be exploring some new piece of music. The latter is far more important than the former IMHO.

But hey, after all that I really am one of the afflicted ones!!

And how old am I - 40?  45? Nah   50? or maybe 55? Nah - surely not 60? - Nah .............. actually I am 61 so surely I am old enough to know better? - NAH ( ) -  no chance of that.

But we sad "audiophiles" are for sure a dying breed. And I for one would not think that a bad thing if suddenly those who may have been audiophiles were actually listening to a broad range of proper quality music - but who is doing that now?

Cheers

Pau

[Robert]

Joachim in checking your graph I'm probably ok as its rarely past an hour at 95. Good sound site.

Robert

[rakeshpoorun]

I'm 60 in a month, half deaf(industrial noise) and ears full off wax, but boy I can still hear a change in music when a change or "upgrade" is imposed.

The main issue for others(wife) is I tend to run my sound 85 to 95 db.

Still in attending a recent Beth Hart concert my ears were subjected to 110db no distortion. Well I only lasted one song and left.

Robert

Hi Robert,

I feel for you. Industrial workplaces used to be and still are dreadful enemies of the audiophile.

Having said that, if I recall correctly you mentioned that you live in beautiful New Zealand. The music of that magical landscape will outlast and outclass every single audiophile system anywhere on the planet, so you are highly compensated!

As far as personal music products are concerned, I do not know what the legislation is in New Zealand but here in Europe the issue is being taken more seriously. Studies conducted by the the EU Scientific Committee SCENIHR led to legislation that goes some way to ensure that exposure to sound level is controlled in personal music players. (see Article 3.2.1 of EU directive 2009/490/EC, for example:

Exposure to sound levels shall be time limited to avoid
hearing damage. At 80 dB(A) exposure time shall be
limited to 40 hours/week, whereas at 89 dB(A) exposure
time shall be limited to 5 hours/week. For other exposure
levels a linear intra- and extrapolation applies. Account shall
be taken of the dynamic range of sound and the reasonably
foreseeable use of the products


More to the point, I have a friend, who is in his twenties, does not contribute much to online forums and attends regular live classical concerts in London where he lives. This is even though his hearing is severely impaired in one ear. So music is certainly accessible to all, irrespective of age, infirmity, even health...And maybe legislation will be increasingly brought in to control noise levels in public venues so you do not face 110db at a public venue (eventually here in Europe anyway).

About children you also said:

We need to train more audiophiles my ipod kids do hear the difference between MP3's and 16/44 Wav files and appreciate what a better system can do.

Robert

I think this is a very lofty aspiration and hopefully your children will grow up to understand the values that are sought by the audiophile.

In my case, I am not too fussy as to the source material. But then again, rather than MP3 (that we do not use here anyway because it is not available anywhere in the house as personal and portable music players are not allowed in my household - how long I can fight this loosing battle I do not know).

On the other hand, I take the children to classical music concerts, not so long ago to Schubert's Variations Goldberg at La Filature and Bach's Magnificat at St Thomas Church, Strasbourg. I was truly shocked that on these occcasions my children (and the older children of guests that we brought along) were the only ones in attendance. It is remarkable how children can learn the power of beautiful music if given the opportunity, which is your point and I agree.

But I do not feel the need to tell them about my hobby as such, about the equipment, the little things that I care about...I prefer them to go on their piano and practise. I remember all too well when I wanted to learn the piano as a teenager, and found a tutor that my parents could ill afford, but without the piano at home, obviously the exercise was doomed to failure.

One of my fondest memories of university was when a friend of mine, a pianist would don off his formal gown and give an impromptu recital, or play the organ of the college chapel without permission or the live concerts at the Sheldonian, even though the seats were(still are) pure medieval torture.

Different ways to skin a cat no doubt and all that. But I try to have the children enjoy music but without any of the distracting audiophile flourishes that come into every aspect of it when it comes to our hobby.

Best regards
Rakesh

[christoffe]

And how old am I - 40?  45? Nah   50? or maybe 55? Nah - surely not 60? - Nah .............. actually I am 61 so surely I am old enough to know better?

Hi Paul,

are you sure with your 61, this guy looks much younger!

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2995.msg31810#msg31810


Joachim

[acg]

Well, I'm 41, deeply afflicted by "the audio sickness" but my young kids respond brilliantly to music and when I put my 4yo daughter on the double-up pushbike and ride half an hour with her pedalling along behind me to childcare she sings and sings and sings.  That is the music that really moves me, and there are no electronics or rooms or speakers or even instruments...just a physical exertion with its endorphins and a gorgeous young voice making up songs as we ride along.

Anthony

[rakeshpoorun]

Well, I'm 41, deeply afflicted by "the audio sickness" but my young kids respond brilliantly to music and when I put my 4yo daughter on the double-up pushbike and ride half an hour with her pedalling along behind me to childcare she sings and sings and sings.  That is the music that really moves me, and there are no electronics or rooms or speakers or even instruments...just a physical exertion with its endorphins and a gorgeous young voice making up songs as we ride along.

Anthony

Like.

[music33]

For you crazy ones...
http://whyyouhearwhatyouhear.com/

dave

[Scroobius]

Hi Paul,

are you sure your 61, this guy looks much younger!

Ha Ha Joachim - I just had a re-count and unfortunately yes!! actually I was much younger when that photo was posted - a mere slip of a lad at 60!!