New NOS1 dedicated PC. Less terrifying thanks to you. All help still welcome!

[juanpmar]

Rakesh (and those interested),

Trying to help a bit more...
Alain sent me this link where can be found general information about the world of PC audio in a quite didactic way.
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/index.html

However, for specific information regarding our XXHighEnd/NOS1 based system, this (our) forum remains the essential reference.

Regards,
Juan

[christoffe]

It only shouldn't be a from all angles under powered laptop ...

Peter

What? 

Now we have to specify what are “OUR” priorities during the replay with XXH. SQ or speed, or SQ + SPEED?

1)   The only advantages of a high powered (multi core) processor is the speed during the FLAC/WAV conversion playing XXH in the “unattended mode”, storing the WAV files into memory  and searching for files on a local HDD.
2)   As one forum member wrote a couple of weeks ago, I did not hear any differences between the “unattended” and “attended” mode too. (I never play XXH in the “unattended” mode since 2010)
3)   The best SQ on my system (and on my audio PC too) I achieve is with 8x AP.
4)   Within the “Energy saving options” of W8 I shut down the monitor after one minute, and therefore no UI is  ...., and that has the same effect as playing XXH with the “unattended mode”. This “procedure” one “Guy” recommended on CA .
5)   During music replay (on a laptop) in the” attended mode” there are no pauses/breaks between 44Khz tracks but during the FLAC/WAV conversions of > 44kHz titles.

With the “under powered laptop” I have the best SQ ever heard on my system.
My conclusion: Don’t be afraid the to use XXH on a laptop  (see my settings)

Joachim

[Robert]

Peter would you recommend 6 cores over 4? I was looking at I7 4790 3.6Ghz LG 1150.

Robert

[CoenP]

Hi Joachim,

You do not need a speedy processor per se, but you need one that handles threads efficiently. This is where the multiple cores AND Hyperthreading come in and loads of L2/3 cache. You do not want your data to be clogged when waiting for a free thread or freeing up memory when precise timing matters. This is why shutting off stuff counts for SQ. To my knowledge there is no cpu test available for this quality. Otoh you can find the good properties on the datasheet.

My i5 is almost as "fast" as the (sb) i7 in arithmetic, yet is sometimes even below the performance border needed for xx. I never saw anyone complan with a low clockrate i7.

My next cpu will have HT and at least 4 cores. Maybe the new k series broadwell or even a Skylake for extra low power consumption.

Regards, Coen

[christoffe]

Hi,

thanks Coen,

Operating XXH in the „minimzed OS“ the active processes (shown in the task manager) are down to appr. 23 (coming from 58), the threads to 243 (coming from 932) and the handles to 5800 (coming from 24729). The only program running is the XXEngine3.exe.

XXH is on a RAM disc and in the “attended mode” during the “switching” of the music tracks the CPU load is constant, except a small dip of some milliseconds.

During all processes the remaining “memory” shows no “activities”, in other  words, everything is “running” between the processor and the RAM disc(s), and there is an approach for a tweak. Somebody in CA wrote that the Samsung modules are of the best quality.

The new X99 chipset with the appropriate CPU supports the DDR4 memory modules (with higher speed) and with that hardware another improvement of the SQ should be possible.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

It only shouldn't be a from all angles under powered laptop ...

Peter

What? 

Hi Joachim,

It is easy to miss, but read this again :

I imagine you have the NOS1a and I have read that this newer version of Peter's dac is more forgiving of the source computer. I will have the NOS1, at least for a year or so. So I need to be more mindful of following the advice given by Peter when designing a PC source for the NOS1.

So this is all about a PC for any normal situation. Could be a Weiss, could be a NOS1, could be anything. But not NOS1a, like you have ...
Ok ?

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

And Joachim,

Operating XXH in the „minimzed OS“ the active processes (shown in the task manager) are down to appr. 23 (coming from 58), the threads to 243 (coming from 932) and the handles to 5800 (coming from 24729). The only program running is the XXEngine3.exe.

Although I am not sure why you say this (or "claim" this ), please be a bit careful with the contexts for others (like the example of this topic being about the normal NOS1 and a PC for that). Anyway, for a same reason (better : same no-reason) I could mention that the running services (under W8) should be 5, including the Phasure NOS1 Driver. How many have you running ? I bet more. Why ? because you are neglecting everything. And why is that ? because *you* don't care much any more. You have a NOS1a ...

And then still it matters. Here it does (again). Just improve on the other stuff around software and DAC and it will matter again.

Best regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Peter would you recommend 6 cores over 4? I was looking at I7 4790 3.6Ghz LG 1150.

Hi Robert,

This is a bit difficult to give as a strict advice. I mean, the difference on the $ is quite large. But assuming it will not matter all that much for SQ (if detectable at all) I personally would go for two times faster track loading (Unattended). So an 8 core (Hyperthreaded assumed) will most often not allow the whole album to load in parallel (because more than 8 tracks) and so it takes twice the time now. A 12 core will most often do load the whole album in parallel (because most will be 12 tracks or less).

So if I were you I would look at that reason alone, and then consider whether it is worth while the money difference (very roughly a 300 euros when compared to a fine i7 4-core).

Hope this helps !
Peter

[PeterSt]

You do not need a speedy processor per se, but you need one that handles threads efficiently. This is where the multiple cores AND Hyperthreading come in and loads of L2/3 cache. You do not want your data to be clogged when waiting for a free thread or freeing up memory when precise timing matters. This is why shutting off stuff counts for SQ.

Quite correct in my view. But read carefully, because what that also tells is that there shouldn't be many processes running to begin with. And this is under our control to some extent only, with also the notice that dozens of active threads may be running while you see one "process name" only.
So how to solve that ? more cores to be certain.

Thus ... clear.

Well, almost, because when you use XXHighEnd 1.186a (and up) and set Q3, Q4 and Q5 to 1, nothing is going to interfere with the playback threads. So now ALL other processes wil run on the other cores. Still they imply current draw (in spiky form) and still they will influence SQ (via jitter in-DAC). And still it is so that the fewer cores the more spiky that current will be.
And still it is so that when the processor is under powered (with again an enphasis on "from all angles") this spikyness will even be higher.

Thus ...

Peter

[rakeshpoorun]

Quick post:

I sent an email to a few motherboard manufacturers last week. I have the reply from Asus regarding their dual CPU motherboard (e.g. the Z10PE-D16 WS) but that was somewhat negative. The questions and answers were:

    Question1: Is it likely you will be updating the bios uefi of your dual cpu workstation motherboards so one can boot frpm Intel 750 SSD from the PCIe slot?

        Answer[from Asrockrack]: we use OCZ RevoDrive as our PCIe SSD validation, and yes, we will support PCIe SSD for sure. And our dual CPU workstation product will be called EP2C612 WS, which you may see it on our official website soon! (Need samples?)

    Question: So the answer, to be absolutely clear, is that one will be able to use the EP2C612 WS and boot from an Intel 750 SSD located in the PCIe slot?  When will this product be launched? When will it be in the shops? I have quite soon. Can you please send me the relevant spec sheet if you have one presently?
    Question2: Also, do you know when the Asrock X99 professional/USB3.1 will be available to buy?
        Answer: this product line belongs to ASRock, and we will be glad to introduce you to them, therefore, could you please let me know your location and the way you most likely to purchase our products - via disty or  on-line purchasing?

And the last email was:

Hi Rakesh,

Yes, absolutely!

This EP2C612 WS can boot from Intel 750 PCIe SSD located in the PCIe slot @UEFI mode with Windows 8.1 Pro, and it has been verified.

As for the purchasing questions, I will asked our sales department to contact you via proper channel and hope that you will get what you need soon!

Thank you very much for your feedback!

Cheers,
ASRR TSD Team.

It is certainly of interest to me and maybe of interest to others so I took the liberty of posting this here.

Best regards
Rakesh

[rakeshpoorun]

Addendum:

The Asrock dual CPU motherboard EP2C612 WS mentioned above by Asrockrack is not commercially available yet but should be shortly. I do not know the specs but if it is like other Asrock motherboards, it should be very competitively priced.

Best rgds
Rakesh

[rakeshpoorun]

Addendum 2:

A quick online search shows that Asrock have already posted the specifications of this EP2C612 motherboard (and other workstation/server motherboards which are part of their new 2015 lineup) online. The specs can be downloaded here:

http://www.asrockrack.com/general/Catalog2015.pdf

Rakesh

[rakeshpoorun]

Addendum 3:

I am quite impressed by the EP2C612D16-2L2T motherboard.

It has 3 x PCIe x 16 slots and 3 x PCIe x 8 slots, has onboard USB3.1 type A (not type C unfortunately but I am pretty sure this can be added via an AIC) as well as Thunderbolt.

The EP2C612D16NM-2T8R adds an LSI3008 card (shock, horror the purists might say) at the expense of a few PCI slots and on-board Thunderbolt header...

Would anyone care to say what they think of these as potential candidates for a source PC for the NOS1?

Rakesh

[rakeshpoorun]

Well, I am not completely surprised if nobody has tried a dual cpu motherboard set-up as a PC source for the NOS1/1a.

With the little real knowledge that I have in such matters, I can think of the following grounds which will count against the viability of such an option:

1. Cost involved. A dual CPU motherboard costs more but that's not always true. For example, I have noticed that the Asus Tuf X99 motherboard costs in excess of 400 Euros but the Asus Z10PA-D8 WS can be found for less. I imagine one does not need more memory. The case required may or may not be bigger but some dual CPU motherboards are ATX size.

2. Complexity. I imagine this must be true. From the reviews that I have read where dual cpu systems were being used, clearly this is considered an issue as not all (in fact few) applications are able to take advantage of the dual cpu configuration. In such cases however, where the application can take advantage of the additional headroom (as seems to be the case with XXHighend), rather substantial gains are made on the singe cpu solution.

3. Power requirements. The motherboard itself will consume presumably more power than its single CPU counterpart but this is unlikely to be by that much. More problematic is the doubling of power draw from the additional CPU. However, if one considers that the power draw of the high-end multi-core CPUs used by some NOS1/1a owners is in the region of 130w peak, then surely two low-powered Intel Xeons consuming 70W peak each is not altogether such a different siuation.

4. Cooling requirements. Whilst the use of two low powered CPUs do lead to lesser cooling requirements (individually) compared a heavyweight 130w CPU nonetheless, the presence of two CPUs means the positioning of one affects the flow of coll air to the other. How much of a problem this is I do not know but I imagine with low powered Xeon CPUs, the issue might not be an insuperable one.

5. Upgrading power supplies. As someone who does not like the effect of poor mains electricity on playback, I can only admire those who hav tried to address these issues within the PC. I have read about different proposed "solutions" by HDPlex for example but here again I am not too sure about the gains to be had here. If I understand correctly XXHighend make minimal power demands during playback. So it is arguable that a solution which is not mainstream and maybe rpovide so little gain is an irrelevant consideration.

6. Sound quality. Glad you ask. I do not have the foggiest and there is only one way to find out!

Best
Rakesh

[rakeshpoorun]

Addendum 4:

I now have the reply from Supermicro's distributors regarding a motherboard that, on paper, I prefer to all the other solutions I have looked at in terms of dual CPU motherboards.

It is the Supermicro MBD-X10DAC.

Specs can be found here:

http://www.supermicro.co.uk/products/motherboard/Xeon/C600/X10DAC.cfm

Again for those who are interested in such matters, I have the reply from their distributors which I received this morning which I post here:

Morning Rakesh,

 ...
 

I can confirm that we can boot from the 750 SSD on the X10DAC.

 

Please advise how you would like to proceed.

 

Regards

That's it for now.

rgds
Rakesh