Ultracapacitors

[Mamba315]

Just sort of thinking aloud here..

Some of you will already known about the guy behind American company Red Wine Audio who started another company named after himself, Vinnie Rossi.  Instead of using lithium ion batteries as Red Wine did, Vinnie Rossi products will be based around ultracapacitor power supplies.  So in the first product, there are 2 banks of 9 ultracapacitors each. While one bank is charging, the other bank is used to supply power to the audio equipment.  And every 10 minutes or so, the banks flop roles seamlessly with no interrupt to audio playback.  And on and on.  He says ultracapacitors have very low output resistance, massive amounts of instantaneous current delivery, can be recharged 100,000's of times or more, and eliminate power grid related noise issues.

As Team Phasure continues to vanquish the noise demons we face, I still wonder about the ultimate power source.  I mean, wouldn't it be nice to not need those massive 5kv transformers some use as a power conditioner, plus running those dedicated grounds outside, and having dedicated audio lines installed, etc.  Then if you ever have to move, you need to start over tackling new power line issues in the new place.  On and on..

So it seems like something like this (ultracapacitors) could make sense if you're audiophile obsessed and want to eliminate all variables in a permanent and semi-portable fashion.  Especially so in an all-Phasure system where speakers are featuring crazy 118db efficiency, which certainly lowers power requirements by a little bit.

But I'm no EE, so maybe there are other factors I haven't considered.  Like I said, just thinking aloud and wanting other opinions.

[PeterSt]

Hey Matt,

Saw this post when you put it up but got busy and then forgot about it. I just saw it again ...

I am not sure ...
Way long ago when nobody really knew what "UltraCaps" were, I was working with them for their super fast charging time vs. the longivity of a charge. Maybe today still, they are underestimated. Say that the only thing I really noticed from them was 10 years ago when Chinese toys came to market, like such a small car which took 20 seconds to charge and next could survive 20 minutes of playing with.
Do that a 100,000 times and you will be fed up with the toy for sure, or just old enough to never look at it any more.

First off, I don't like "batteries". Maybe for this reason I lost interest in the UltraCaps to begin with. Maybe unjustified. But ...

100,000 hours is only 694 days. That is, when leaving all On all the time, which is what I would do in the first place. So less than two years. And hmm ...
And less, because towards the end of the life of any battery, the thing being on the charger will be longer than the joy from it. I guess even with an UltraCap.

The fact that it charges so fast, will require quite much "control" on the (mains related) circuitry to begin with. I mean, so that the sound won't go bad once per 10 minutes. Or just changes somewhat. Thus it would be nothing for me.
But of course this all depends on how much power is required and maybe it could last a listening session when careful. And don't just recharge at night times (put on normal power inestead).

Anyway, well, not sure !
Thanks ...
Peter

[Mamba315]

Hey Peter,  I looked up the actual number of recharge cycles claimed..

From : http://vinnierossi.com/configure-lio/

"Lifespan rated at 500,000 cycles (compare that to 2,000 cycles for the best Lithium battery topologies). You will never need to change batteries and will enjoy a lifetime of use.
Cleanest, high-current DC power supply yet!
Ultra-low internal resistance of < 0.003 ohms per cell, delivering higher DC current than any other storage device.
No memory effects for a lifetime of perfect musical performance."

Let's say 500,000 cycles since that's what is claimed, and also "no memory effects".  That is 20 minutes per cycle (remember 10 minutes per bank of Ultracaps, and there are 2 banks)

That's 10,000,000 minutes
166,667 hours
6944 days
19 years if always left on.

So much better than 2 years I'd say.  But yes, in 19 years the Ultracaps would need replacement.

I'm not sure about the sound going bad every 10 minutes.  The switch happens so fast that music is not interrupted.  Its supposed to happen too quickly to hear anything.  So SQ should not be affected even for a second, theoretically.

"While one bank of ultracapacitors are feeding pure DC current to the audio circuits the other bank is charging. The audio circuitry is NEVER connected to the charging ultracapacitor bank and is 100% isolated from the AC mains at ALL times. This approach provides dramatic performance and durability advantages over every other power supply technology whether AC or battery."

[CoenP]

Ultra caps are an interesting idea. They look good: practically no discharge noise, 'unlimited' charging cycles and fast chargable.
 
You have to understand they are NOT batteries, energy is NOT stored chemically but by a dielectric: they are capacitors. Discharging a capacitor means that their voltage is lowered every electron that leaves it. So they might be able to load and offload superfast (destroying your charging supply in the process) yet they aren't immediately useable an an audio circuit supply where the voltage ideally is constant. Batteries can be designed for this purpose: to provide a constant-as-possible voltage during charge and discharge. Capacitors by their nature cannot.
When you want to use ultra caps, some DC-DC (=switching) power convertor must be involved or you'll have to work with an overvoltage and regulator to compensate for the unavoidable voltage loss during discharge.

So I don't see the caps as the problem but more the complexity you have to introduce to be able to use them as constant voltage power source. Probably both the DC-C switcher as the Lin regulator are more noisy than the capacitor.

They may do have a place in the regular supply filtration with their small size and large capacitance. If I'm correct they were used extensively in the linear supply days of computers. Anyway they are on my shortlist for quieting a linear computer PSU.

regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

Thank you Coen.

And Matt,

I'm not sure about the sound going bad every 10 minutes.  The switch happens so fast that music is not interrupted.  Its supposed to happen too quickly to hear anything.  So SQ should not be affected even for a second, theoretically.

"While one bank of ultracapacitors are feeding pure DC current to the audio circuits the other bank is charging. The audio circuitry is NEVER connected to the charging ultracapacitor bank and is 100% isolated from the AC mains at ALL times. This approach provides dramatic performance and durability advantages over every other power supply technology whether AC or battery."

I was talking about this latter. So, talks about the 100% isolated, and of course this will logically be so, but what I wouldn't trust is that the influence is not there. I mean, I think I myself would have problems with isolating the capacitive charge of the cabinet because of the charging of the capacitors and if not that then radiation and if not that then something else. So you know, everything matters, and in this case this is about the unknown of the happening (the when) combined with the superfast charging (high current !) of the UltraCaps.
So charge your iPhone etc. and see how warm the charger can get and notice the number of hours it takes to charge the phone. For an UltraCap this is easily 10 seconds or so, with after that the same power capabilities as a normal battery. Anyway, compare the required current for the normal battery per time unit, with what's required here and although the charger (charging) may be ready before it overheats, the now necessary current per same time unit is crazy (but possibly circuitry can prevent the very fast charging).

And so I expect this to influence from left or from right (that's Dutch) and I rather had that same whatever influence continuously (now I can trust what I hear for each second that I judge).

Maybe I am all over wrong and the experience is from too long ago. Wasn't about audio either so I never took implied downsides into account. Like the voltage drop Coen mentions; my application was PWM controlled anyway, and (motor) speed would be constant because of that. Who cares.

Btw, I have worked on a battery setup with the NOS1 (really listened to it etc.). But actually the same thing applies for the voltage regulation, because what we regard for "battery still shows 9V and thus is still full" in the end drops from 9.200 to 9.175 to 9.120 to 9.080 to 9.020 to 8.900 to 8.860 and we still regard it as full. Meanwhile the voltage rails depening on it will drop, and depening on the application this will influence (with in the most extreme case the sound getting more soft). So to do that right here too regulation is needed, and there goes a part of the juice into.

Batteries and the like are quite a hassle, and the upside of them for audio I never really found. Downsides for sure yes.

Regards,
Peter