The Earth Moved

[Scroobius]

It is pretty quiet hereabouts in the evenings but very occasionally a lorry passes slowly by at the back of the house. I know when it does because there is a deep rumble that feels like the house is moving.

Recently I was listening to an album (actually some Stekpanna) when a lorry passed slowly by. I knew it was a lorry because the house rumbled - I could feel it as much as hear it. This happened a few times during the track I was listening to so I switched xx off and listened again. The lorry stopped moving. This happened three times during the track and each time the lorry stopped moving. I did not really believe it could be the hifi and being lazy I did not bother to get up to see if there was indeed a lorry outside.

Anyway the same thing happened on another track the following night. This time though it sounded as though someone was firmly planting the heal of their foot on the floor upstairs. Again the house rumbled. I still did not consider that this really could be the hifi until again 3 times I switched it off to find that the deep rumble disappeared.

So there it is it took about six times of switching xx off before I could start to accept that the sound as actually coming out of these Orelino's.

I don't remember bass quiet like this before the mods to the computer though. Awesome!!!

Just a thought though - maybe there is something wrong with the house!!

[PeterSt]

Great story Paul.

I guess when these kind of things start to happen, we must be very close to the real thing.

Longer ago I could make notice only of crying babies to be real. I don't think this was related to our son Paul being more close to a baby those few years ago but anyway it is an exhibit of your system performing so well that such a baby sounds so realistic that you really think there is one in the room. Not for long of course, because surely no baby is in the room anywhere.

These days I can almost say that this happens daily, but now with other sounds. Totally sure that someone else was making it, like a caugh or a grown or name it, and this is much harder to detect because the people *are* in the room and could make those sounds. So only when repeatedly such sounds are there and coincidentally your eyes are on the one who should make the sound, it's an  "oh f*ck, it is the music !".

None of this was there a few years ago, except for that baby here and there (rare in music anyway).

Now rumble on !
Peter

[Nick]

Paul,
Super to hear, I really understand where your coming from. The sense of "presence" in  the room is a regular occurrence here too but not so much down to bass given my speakers. Bass however is like never before, even my early duos are knocking out the rhythm giving the sense of things in the room (or landing on the house  ). I never thought I would be able to say that with these early duos, but it turns out the speakers were not the problem.

The PC build has come on a simply huge distance since you and Mani visited, you would not recognise the sound, honestly. I'v been investing a huge amount of time and funds developing the server, I'm wating on parts just now to finish what will be the 'reference' level build.

Just a thought though - maybe there is something wrong with the house!!

You may need to consider alterations to deal with what Iis coming  haha.

Best regards,

Nick.

[Scroobius]

Ha - maybe some underpinning to the foundations is called for before the next upgrade.

 

[christoffe]

Some thoughts about bass found here:

http://dagogo.com/beatnik-pet-peeve-3-way-modern-speakers-play-bass

Very few people like a speaker that has fat, flabby sounding bass. More people nowadays seem to like fast, tight bass with lots of slam. People also seem hung up on how low speakers play bass. There are speakers which can place bass down to the low 20 Hz regions that don’t have satisfying bass. There are speakers like any of the LS3/5As that don’t make it to 40 Hz but the bass sounds musical, and admittedly not powerful or very full.

The part of my audio journey that has brought me to be thinking about bass has been listening to Wayne Picquet’s rebuilt Quad ESL. I hadn’t expected them to have some of the most musical bass I have had in my house. When word got out that I had them in, I was surprised how many people wanted to come by to hear them; seems that a lot of people have never heard this legendary speaker. Everyone that came by first commented on how wonderful the bass was. I would tell them they don’t go that low and they would reply that they didn’t care because the bass sounded more like real instruments. The next thing they commented on was how natural the voices sounded; that I expected.

So all this talk about bass started me thinking about some of the speakers I have reviewed and listened to at audio shows in the last couple of years. A few came to mind: the Burwell & Sons Homage speakers, the big JBL Everest, the incredible sounding RCA LC-1A LS-11 and those wonderful sounding Tannoy Golds mounted in a Jensen Imperial Cabinets turned upside down so that the empty horn part of the cabinet acted as a stand to raise the Tannoy Gold drivers to the right height. Those were in the Pass Labs room at the 2014 California Audio Show.

All of these speakers have several things in common. First, they are all based on or actually are speakers from the mid to late 50s. Second, none of them attempt to play down into the 20s, in fact some don’t make it below 45Hz. Third, they all have very large drivers, most of them have 15-inch bass drivers and the Quad ESL bass panels have around 500 square inches for each speaker. Lastly, while they don’t all sound the same in the bass they all sound wonderfully musical.

There seems to me to be something fundamentally different in the way these speakers play bass compared to modern speakers with their super dead cabinets and incredible fast, tight and really deep bass. While these speakers sound very impressive their bass just doesn’t flow within the performance like these older-design speakers. The bass on these newer speakers is definitely deeper, faster and has more slam, but they just don’t have the life in the bass that the more vintage designs do. All of the speakers above have incredible air and harmonics in the bass. You feel the bass. Yes, you feel the bass with the modern speaker as well, but differently. The bass from modern speakers with extremely dead cabinets has a very pistonic sound. To me, real music seldom sounds this way, occasionally rock music does, but it also often sounds purposefully distorted.

Let’s use a selection that is a show favorite for showing off bass; the “Fever” cut on Elvis is Back is a favorite demo for the modern speakers designed with really dead cabinets and fast, deep bass. The first time I ever heard this LP was at the last Stereophile Show held in San Francisco. People were standing in line to hear something in the Wilson Audio and VTL room. When my turn came along I went in to see the big Wilson speakers with the biggest tube amps I had ever seen. Elvis’ “Fever” was the first cut they played. It was awesome. Everybody wanted to know which Elvis album that was on? I bet this one demo sold a lot of the LPs. The cut started with a standup bass playing left of center. On the Wilson’s that day and on other speakers of this type I have heard over the years the bass simply explodes out of silence; Elvis is just right there in the center of the soundstage, like he was suspended in space; the finger snaps seem to float in space, the snare comes at you fast, tight and appears from different points in the sound stage like watch fireworks at night; and to follow the same thought the bass drum explodes like cannons with shocking slam and speed. While really impressive, I doubt Elvis or his fans ever heard it sound like this live or in the studio.

By contrast on the Quad 57 or the Burwell & Sons, the standup bass is warmer, fuller and sounds much more like a wooden string instrument, on the 57 you can hear and feel the air move from it. On these two speakers Elvis is not so precisely located, he is in the center but the image is a little bigger and not as sharp. On the 57, the voice is much more natural than either of two. The finger snaps still seem odd, I think they were just recorded too close to the mic. On the 57, they sound alright, but they seem to be on the panels. On the Burwell & Sons they come out of the horn and are a little tinny sounding. The snares are very different from the modern, dead cabinet speakers, they are still spaced a little strangely but they sound like snares and not something else and they have air instead of empty space around them. Lastly, the sound of the bass drums is very different. The drum doesn’t sound shocking, just big and powerful. On both the 57 and the Burwell & Sons it just sounds more like a drum. Interestingly, the 57 actually move more air on this cut than the Burwell & Sons.

All of these comparisons are interesting, but the only thing that matters is that the Quad 57 and the Burwell & Sons play Elvis’ “Fever” more like you would hear it at a performance and the modern speakers with their dead cabinets and deep, deep bass just sound more impressive in areas that aren’t part of the musical experience.

I need to say that one of the things I cannot tolerate in an audio system is fat, boomy bass. Still, it seems I prefer a more vintage sound when it comes to bass. With all these speakers, placement and amp selection is absolutely a necessity or they can sound fat and boomy. For example, the only way I could get the Quad 57 to play this kind of bass was by using the incredible Pass Labs XA30.8. Even then the Quads had to be at least 5 feet off the wall behind them to not sound tubby. Still, in the end I find the harmonics, richness, air and weight of the vintage sound to allow music to flow in a more natural way than most top-of-the-line modern speakers, even those costing in the six figure range.

Are there any exceptions to this? Well, open baffled speakers do a pretty good job with bass, the big Maggies do as well, but with both of those we don’t have ported, dead boxes trying to play live sounding music. This is all just my own opinion, but that’s what a column is all about after all.

[PeterSt]

Nice Joachim !

And I still think we have something very exceptional at our hands. So apart from some of us being able to interpret every sentence of that quote as a "yeah, but we ...", like I did that myself, I saw this comment in the link you provided :

It’s interesting that a friend of mine who designed the SEAS Froy 3 kit designed a set of 18″ woofers for them that can be used ported(3Db down at 23 Hz) or closed box(3Db down at 33 Hz). I prefer the dryer bass closed box. My friend prefers the ported box(done with a rarely used for reflex box, Bessel function roll off). And we both agree exactly on what we hear on both setups. The closed box is definitely tighter(which by topology it should be) and more defined. But there is a sense of ‘life’ with the ported box missing from the closed version.

So, very good that the base text ends with "open baffle", but I don't think the writer anticipates open baffle with some serious SPL and a 19Hz -0dB. And I think this shows emphasized by the quote I just gave. At least to me it does so.
Btw, I must be careful, because the 19Hz counts for the Orelo MKII and since this is Paul's topic who owns the Orelino we'd have to see that his speaker would be 25Hz -0dB and a fairly linear line to 17Hz which is at -9dB. If we now see that the 8Hz difference (25-17) spans 9dB and make that 1dB/Hz then at (25-3) 22Hz the Orelino will be -3dB. However, in comparison that would still be from a ported cabinet with "super distortion" (see the quote I gave).

So what the base text from that blog doesn't pronounce is that this is all about unrecognized distortion while the Orelo MKII as well as the Orelino don't show any audible distortion at all at any frequency (the 3%THD limit for that taken into account). It just rolls off sufficiently so that the distortion never can happen.

Again read that blog text. So what you see in there, and how those "few of us" can read that in between the lines, is that any decent speaker which does the same (about the not lower than 45Hz etc.) will be the better one. And even 45Hz will be very challenging for a cabinetted speaker.

But of course there is no single way that a speaker going to 45Hz only will be comparable with a speaker going to 25Hz (or 22Hz if you like for a -3dB point), let alone one which goes to 19Hz (and a -3dB point at 17Hz), as the Orelo MKII does.
Thus, nice that Elvis shows better on that 45Hz speaker without (too much) distortion, but I bet that Elvis sounds way better on "our" speaker. That is, if those lower frequencies are in there to begin with.

And of course the latter is part of the whole issue (see blog text, where the guy doesn't explicitly recognize it) : when a speaker heavily distorts already at say 45Hz, there will be all kind of distortion products *under* that and those are all false. Thus, play 45Hz and it may show 25Hz and more rubbish, which may sound low and deep etc., but which is false. And the point is and remains : this is very hard to recognize (because so low already) and the only thing we could try to "see" is : is this music ? is this realtity ?

I will try to find that Elvis and play it tonight.
Peter

[CoenP]

Great post Joachim,

It thoroughly reflects my findings. Unfortunately I never heard a recent Orelo in a proper room.

For now 45 Hz suits me fine no shortage of bass quality and quantity with my tiny low df amp.

Regards, Coen

[christoffe]

I will try to find that Elvis and play it tonight.

Hi Peter,

did you listen to the "Fever" track.
I heard it via "WIMP" on my PC (and ordered the CD) and this piece must sound great (with amazing ambience) on your system.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Joachim - I forgot !
Another chance tonight ...

[PeterSt]

Forgot again.

[PeterSt]

Hey Paul,

Sorry Paul, the low end from your Orelinos is good, but not this good

That is great news Mani I am really glad to hear that you got your bass sorted out.

I must say, however, that when I posted "The Earth Moved" it was after the mods to my computer which produced sub low bass that really does sound as if the house foundations are moving (sometimes!!) - and that was after you heard them last ha ha.

Aha ...
I mean, now this is suddenly hard to digest for me. So I promise you firmly, when you dedicate this to something which is related to the "mods" you refer to, it will be for the worse. So for me now everything comes together. Not for working out in this topic maybe, but just a promise anyway ...

Regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

it was after the mods to my computer which produced sub low bass

Well so it seemed!! - I had not set out to test low bass it is just that playing those familiar tracks I just did not remember such low bass and I certainly do not remember previously being moved to turn off the sound 6 times in order to work out where the bass was coming from. Of course my memory may be failing - that is more than a distinct possibility!!

Cheers

Paul

[PeterSt]

did you listen to the "Fever" track.

Joachim, it is in my Playlist now for in a couple of hours.
So all I can forget now is report about it.

Peter

[PeterSt]

it was after the mods to my computer which produced sub low bass

Well so it seemed!! - I had not set out to test low bass it is just that playing those familiar tracks I just did not remember such low bass and I certainly do not remember previously being moved to turn off the sound 6 times in order to work out where the bass was coming from. Of course my memory may be failing - that is more than a distinct possibility!!

Hahaha !
But that is not what I hinted at, Paul ! I wouldn't dare to. If I'd do that then I drank your last bottle of whiskey plus what to do with two nice cigars ?!

So no. When I combine this with the all so nice highs - that maybe not reported in this topic but in Nick's about the PC mods - then it is clear to me that it went in the exact opposite direction. And, it is a a typical exhibit of *more* USB noise.

Bass won't go lower from "better"; only less low and more distinct (which is logical). But then of course anything can happen which makes bass more profound *and* for the better. But lower it will never be because of better. It can't. It can only go the other way around : destroy a few things and have a more wobbly bass. Can be house shaking indeed because all what happens is "a few wobbles" at some oscillating frequency, like for example 17Hz (while maybe 50Hz is intended) which 17Hz your speakers can easily do at high SPL (like 100).

Want to easily try this ? go back to W7 once again and be shocked about the low output. Must I say it again ? feel your woofers after having done that under W8 (well, the latter might be difficult if things are now wrong to begin with).
The difference is clear, right ? Well, when you play some tunes under W7, you might just as well be totally annoyed about the distorting highs.

I am not saying that this comparison of W8 and W7 is exactly the same as the USB thing, but it resembles it to some extent. Yes, will shake your house just the same (and more in your situation as how I judge it). But better ? Try to listen to it for a week (if you'd survive that).
So if you are really correct in this all being caused by that mod, then for you it may take 2 months to hear that it is not for the better. But you will get it - just wait.
Or compare again with the original (PC and such). Which of course is quite difficult ...

That was all. No harm intended. Just be careful ...
Peter

PS: But of course you could tell me one or two of those tracks; I can try them here and give a more realistic "judgment" than this high-stipulation stuff.

[christoffe]

did you listen to the "Fever" track.

Joachim, it is in my Playlist now for in a couple of hours.
So all I can forget now is report about it.

Peter

 

It's never too late.

Joachim