Mobo main clock replacement...

[christoffe]

I have heard the mod in Nicks system with his server, Nick's system with Mani's modified server, my system with my server and my system with Nick's server.

Hi,

to be precise, you modified the "Audio PC" (with XXH) not the "server" ?!!?

Joachim

[christoffe]

Hi Peter,

you remember the "Yello" track you played with your "WEISS" visitor?

Joachim

[manisandher]

Just a quick comment from my side...

Everything now matters here (again?). Small changes in XX are reflected in the sound. If I change SFS by just 0.2, I hear it. If I change the 'Nervous Rate' in XTweaks, I hear it. I'm using an SSD for the OS and XX at the moment - changing 'copy to XX folder' on/off totally changes the sound. As before, USB cables change the sound. And of course, this is with a NOS1a 'B75'.

There's a lot of tuning to do here now... Argh!

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Well (Mani), didn't I predict that this would happen. All it required was more steps ahead. And I guess you (guys) just reached that threshold.

I should not be too fast with my confirmations but at least I will refrain from denials just the same. Haha. But might someone like to know :

It was only yesterday that I changed my SFS to 60 (always being at 4) just to test something very else : I felt that my audio PC needed a reboot after a month or more without it (couldn't get to the best SQ any more). Instead though - and very deliberately -, I changed the SFS. Et voilá ...

But there is more to this, which I will save for another topic.

Peter

[PeterSt]

you remember the "Yello" track you played with your "WEISS" visitor?

Nah Joachim - As I already told, I forgot. Maybe if I play the album I will recognize it. Can try tonight if my mood is right.

Peter

[PeterSt]

Dear all,

Please take note : this may come across as a strange act, but I promise you, it is not at all. It is only that I don't know really what to do or what's expected from Phasure in this realm. Foremost : I want to be with full respect to all involved (is this English ?) but I must be in time before strange things might happen.
Also, please notice that this time no single private email was spent about this clock thing, and thus the more we should feel this expressed respect. So please keep this in mind, especially for Nick. So Nick, respond to this as you feel because I only like to offer our help. And this is because it could be really that, while I can only know when this is out to the public. So here goes :

Obviously we can apply these mods. As obviously, and in close co-operation with Nick as how things went previously, it can be so that something which has been worked out or pre-cooked if you like, can be applied for real by us. "For real" does not mean "for the better", but it can easily mean that some sh*tload of work implied is taken out of someone's hands while we are easily used to that. Also, and as always, this does NOT mean earn some $$, but it could just as well mean that someone (like Nick) thinks to earn those. So this is #1 to explicitly take into account : if it is so that Nick likes to earn some $$ over this, then this is very OK of course and we can all stop reading.

Still there ?

The sheer reason - apart from that something could be expected from us (even by Nick himself) - is that there's a possibly unexpected little advantage on our side : we still have 20 or so of the Extreme4-M MoBos laying around - those used by Nick for the working out of this all.

Of course there's also the relation with the "XXHighEnd PC" and what these MoBos are meant for, so far away I'd have to think about that too; people order such a PC and how can they (now) go without such mods. I know, a bit of a different subject, but thus highly related.

It can very well be that I am too soon with this proposal, with the notice that I did not hear a thing of it myself (I mean for SQ and obviously). However, it should be clear by now that I trust this, so we must assume that it will be OK (and I say it again : who the heck is PeterSt, so mind that I can take distance when needed, which is what I am doing right now).
What's involved (for parts and labor) I also don't know, but one way or the other that will be fine.

I started thinking about this when Joachim asked about / implied "the upgrade kit", of which I am sure you must forget about this. So rather think about receiving a modded MoBo and then still you must replace that which already isn't for everyone.

All combined, we have the MoBos and for those who are not sure they ever replaced a MoBo, we have a whole PC around it, of course (but now $$ rises).
If you can replace the MoBo yourself, do notice that whatever it is you have currently, the Extreme4-M will fit (uATX).

Before you have forgotten it, no strange act. Only the offer to help out where it can be expected (as how I think) that the offer should be there in the first place. That's why the "en public" before even asking Nick. Meanwhile Nick is allowed to read this as an offer just the same, which should express some appreciation.

Best regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

Of course there's also the relation with the "XXHighEnd PC" and what these MoBos are meant for, ................. if you can replace the MoBo yourself, do notice that whatever it is you have currently, the Extreme4-M will fit (uATX).

My PC is a home made "XXHighend PC clone" using the Silverstone case and Extreme4-M mobo. I will post a photo tonight that will give an idea of how I modified it later tonight. I will also let you know the pain I had to go through to get it to work as a "Headless" PC.

What I can say is that the mods will take longer than you would imagine. But the second time is always faster.

to be precise, you modified the "Audio PC" (with XXH) not the "server" ?!!?

Hi Joachim - yes its a "fair cop" I should call it a "music PC".

Cheers

Paul

[PeterSt]

I will also let you know the pain I had to go through to get it to work as a "Headless" PC.

When you're at this anyway ... The problem I have myself is that my XXHighEnd PC won't reboot without monitor connected (video card is still in). So next version of XXHighEnd contains nice reboot options when controlled from a remote, but in my case it doesn't work out; PC keeps on rebooting until I plug in the monitor.
Normal shutdown works though. haha

Peter

[Scroobius]

I have not properly tidied this up - the internal wiring needs sorting not done yet because there is another tweak to go in this weekend Below is a picture of my XXHighEnd "clone" with 3 Dexa's installed. I must say Dexa's are overkill. With enough time it would be possible to produce something much smaller for this application. I use a separate water cooling tower (as do Nick and Mani) and so I do not have the cooler inside that the XXHighEnd PC does, so there is more room. The internal DVD rewriter is removed so there is now space for 3 Dexa's and their power supplies. A USB DVD rewriter is my lot now.

The video card is removed and it is worthwhile doing because it helps improve SQ quality - especially with these mods in place. Everything now seems to make a difference with these mods in.

Mani and Nick both had video cards, they were able to remove them and re-boot without problems. I could not get mine to complete the POST without the video card. We all had the same mobo the Z79 extreme4-m at that time although Mani had to change his subsequently (see his recent post). For me the problem was that I used a 4T spinning disc and I had formatted my disc as GPT so that W8 could recognise the full 4T. With GPT I had to boot into full UEFI (that took a while to work out). After scratching my head for some time and trying a few things I eventually decided to reformat a smaller 2T disc in MBR and reload W8. It now means my PC is using BIOS. In this mode the so called UEFI interface comes up but it actually sits on top of BIOS so it is not true UEFI. Now I can boot without the video card.

I suspect that the XXHighEnd PC is actually using BIOS in the same way mine is now - it is easy to check in disc manager hover over the right had side of disc in question and right click - look at the drop down menu if you are offered the option to convert to GPT then you know it is MBR (or vice versa). If your OS HDD is MBR you should be able to remove that video card.

Cheers

Paul

[PeterSt]

Whooo Paul. That looks serious *and* neat.
Thanks for posting ...

Z79

I know you like to be ahead of all, but ... X79.


Peter

[PeterSt]

Hi Peter,

you remember the "Yello" track you played with your "WEISS" visitor?

Joachim, it is the track "Vertical Vision" - track 10 on the (I think) normal 14 track album (16/44.1).

Now I hear it again I recall there can also be huge differentiation in the flute (the air through it).

Especially the beginning should be totally "black". But even when not, you won't recognize what's added so to speak. So anyone will say it is black anyway.
Or get a Weiss perhaps.
Anyway, the NOS1a took all the remainder out what the NOS1 left.
And possibly MoBo mods will take out even more which I think is normal to be there ...

Regards,
Peter

[Nick]

Hi,

Turn my back for a day and wow this has gone a bit mad  , so many posts. So to catch up on a few points....

Overall, it was a great day with Nick and Paul. My feeling is that Nick is definitely onto something here. But translating it into something feasible for most computer audio users is going to present a LOT of challenges. I mean, there's always the distinct possibility of screwing up the mobo, and even if everything works as planned, shipping mobos around with sensitive clock parts attached to then doesn't seem very practical to me.

Mani,

Thanks for having the faith to commit to trying this out blind. It certainly works and takes transparency and musicality to a new level IMHO. I am very pleased that you are so happy with the outcome but to be honest knew that it could work it is in the no-brainer camp I think.

The point above is not one to be to be overly concerned about  I took my time with your PC. This would always have to be the case but if you understand what your doing these changes can be applied reliably and shipped safely without problem.

I like the idea that you may play digital music to your vinyl dealer when he comes round I can see how that would go unnoticed ! To your vinyl loving friend, the sound of your changed system could be as tempting as a bacon sandwich is to a vegetarian haha.

Let's see what is practicable for us non-electricians. (mobo + a kit + manual?)
Joachim

Joachim hi,

This is not quite the way that it might work but having given this some serious thought for significant period and doing work that has not been mentioned in these posts geared to this. There are a number of options that might be offered. Given my thinking I did smile when I saw this you will find out why in a later post.

So guys, I wasn't telling that my system can do what these MoBo mods do. Not at all. Only that it is clear to me that when descriptions are like that from Paul, it most clearly shows an improvement which is for very real. We all will have "this" better than you, while you have "that" better than he. If this is all brought together we might get there. Whether 10 years is enough ? probably not. But let's continue and try. Our goal ? when something sounds nasty, there's more behind it and it has to be dug out. I'm telling you !

Peter hi,

I actually think you absolutely right, your system does somehow do some of what my PC modifications do. It's funny you should mention this, my visit to yours some time ago got me thinking afterwards about a number of things, and the low hash quality of your system was one of them. How come your system had less of a hash problem than the others I had listened to ? Why did the USB clocks I bought along not work as expected, and bloody hell ,I never wanted to listen to those Patty Grffith  tracks again  
Thinking about the possible reasons there was less hash in your system, solving the USB clocks performance and focusing for long time on what the common characteristics of my previously rather large library of “problem tracks” all helped point the way to think about the PC.

I honestly don’t really have many “problem tracks left now and since changing the PC for some time have been actively selecting really difficult stuff to reproduce. The reason is because often its these performances that are seat of your pants raw and complex and on the edge in some way and this makes them riveting if they can be reproduced well.

Everything now matters here (again?). Small changes in XX are reflected in the sound. If I change SFS by just 0.2, I hear it. If I change the 'Nervous Rate' in XTweaks, I hear it. I'm using an SSD for the OS and XX at the moment - changing 'copy to XX folder' on/off totally changes the sound. As before, USB cables change the sound. And of course, this is with a NOS1a 'B75'.
There's a lot of tuning to do here now... Argh!
 

Mani hi,

All setting matter again  but also  , I would say more so in some ways, even down to 0.1SFS and all of the other settings. This is consistent with the theory that is driving the modifications to the PC hardware.  Now the good thing is that it is no longer a case of having to used the XX software settings to “match” with the PCs hash signature to give the least offensive overall sound.  It is possible to find XX settings that just don’t have anything like to level of “compromise” . Previously I would be tweaking at XX settings almost every track in the hope of getting it right somehow, not now.

As we discussed I would really suggest that you start with Peter's BIOS settings and Peter's W8 software settings as a start point. I don’t think it is coincidence that in the comment above I mentioned that Peters system exhibited some of the qualities of the modified PC and that Peter settings hit a sweet spot with these XX Settings.

Happy tweaking this time, yes time to tweak again but this time I think you may get a satisfying sound at the end of it and not really need to adjust very often after this.

In fact I would say one of the most significant improvements to my system (but I suspect it  would need all the previous mods i.e NOS1a and Blaxius  to work as well as it does)

Paul,

I agree the match of the NOS1a and the modified PC is supper supper sweet however as I mentioned much earlier in the thread the modification to the PC should improve any system using Firewire, USB or PCIe interfaces to a DAC. On a case by case basis it is very likely that the relative change in sound quality the modified PC delivers with some DACs will be much greater than with the NOS1a. My view is that Peters 1a upgrade actually significantly reduced the susceptibility of the NOS to the PC's  "sound signature". In the back of my mind the objective has been to address the "signature" of the PC that we have all been listening to for years. I honestly remember the same hash signature, and as Mani puts it metallic quality, in pc sound when I first started with PC audio and moding M-Audio Transit Cards. so its very nice to see it leaving the sound at last 




Regards to all,

Nick.

[Nick]

I must say Dexa's are overkill. With enough time it would be possible to produce something much smaller for this application.

I hear my words being used here Paul. The Dexas have some unique features which may mean they may remain the gold standard for what has to be done to the PC. The rest should remain a private conversation for now please.

Nick.

[Nick]

Before things kick off too fast, I wanted to provide a update on where I think the PC upgrades are at right now.

Mani and Pauls systems have been updated with the first two modifications (well three if you include the USB clocks already applied). In addition headless configuration and a storage options for OS and XX are being used which IMHO also help (thanks Mani for pointing out the video card less configuration, one of those happy coincidences given what I was working on at the time )

There is however much more to do to prove the overall concept and finish this, already there are mods to Mani and Pauls configs I have in mind to test (I will apply these guys for you if they work here).

Given the interest I will try to accelerate the work.

Finally I would like to productise this approach, both as a retrofit and as a very high end music server. There is a very large amount of work to do to establish the complete spec beyond what was listened to last week end, already some promising results in other areas. Work has already begun on how this all can be practically implemented with some very neat solutions being considered.

Peter I'll drop you a note to discuss how I should handle updates or not were this to become a slightly more commercial endeavour.

Best regards,

Nick.

[Scroobius]

my words being used here Paul

No problem I'll stick with the music reviews!! 

.......................... by the way a small package due for delivery today - more work to do this weekend!!! will let you know how I get on.