Best Vinyl Rig

[boleary]

Joachim, what is a "DDD CD?"

[christoffe]

Joachim, what is a "DDD CD?"

Hi Brian,

the recording chain is fully digital. You see this remark on the CD covers/booklets sometimes.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Now folks, fire back.

Hi Joachim,

I think this is a far too simple approach;

Listening to old records on my vinyl rig I have to say, the digital chain has to struggle very hard to catch up with the vinyl sound. The vinyl sound creates a real powerful 3D image of the soundstage, it is a wall of sound. The whole area around the speakers is “energized”, full of music, you hear the depth of the recording room.

I described this myself in the beginning of this topic, and maybe you recall that in (your) response I expected your "wall of sound" to be a positive. Later you "admitted" (??) that this was a negative and so today it apparently is still not clear. Anyway, I call this generally (because I can't know really) the opposite of accuracy.
And to maybe keep in mind : I recently described (for a 2nd or 3rd time) how "super depth" will never any more be something I fall for, because in the end it appeared to be a big disappointment.

One thing I keep on telling : The better it gets, the more "point sourced" the sound will be, which in the end for me is logic. And if then things are not right they will work out quite badly. This will come across as contradictionary but this is because several things exist of "having it right".
Easy example (for me) : When the bass is not accurate it will fill the room with "low sound" and you can call it "energize" the room. When this is to be played through a woofer which can't cope with the low frequencies, then the perception of bass gets "more". But again it went less accurate.

In the end we won't be able to compare. My system is supposed to pass on any low frequency with inaudible distortion. What would happen when I play an LP over it ? I really don't know (never tried it) but I do know that the LF won't even be in the LP's representation (LP is high passed above 30Hz or so).

Ah, BS story I guess. And I sure won't tell anyone that he shouldn't like what he likes (although it sure looks like that, haha).

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

-   I’m wondering about the missing energy (with the 1$USB cable) of the “DDD” CD’s compared to vinyl. Is the omitted preamp the reason?

Something else is, as it seems, that you take for granted that DDD recordings are the better ones over AAD etc. I wouldn't know why ...
But it depends on the mastering engineer. So if we first assume that the later it gets in time, the more is molested for digital, then ADD should be worse than AAD and DDD should be worse than ADD.
Of course this doesn't make really sense, but my point could be : anything which was not touched much other than "just digitize it" is way way better than anything from later. The remaster sh*t and such.

So another point we could disagree over.
Peter

[Nick]

Listening to old records on my vinyl rig I have to say, the digital chain has to struggle very hard to catch up with the vinyl sound. The vinyl sound creates a real powerful 3D image of the soundstage, it is a wall of sound. The whole area around the speakers is “energized”, full of music, you hear the depth of the recording room.

The sound of the digital releases of the LP’s (Return To Forever, Dave Brubeck,  Elvis Presley, Chick Corea) has no energy,  is flat with a small 3D image, (with vinyl the room depth is 5m, with digital 2m only) nothing sparkles.

On the vinyl “Take five” track you hear the drums, especially the cymbals and snare drum all over as one of the major instrument beside the piano. On the CD version the drums are playing behind a big curtain, all the magic of the amazing drums is gone.

Christoffe,

I could not agree with you more, for me you have nailed the difference: energy, soundstage, the sense that people are in front of you playing together.

I do not believe that the problem is in the conversion of tracks from analogue to digital. If this is done well then the information is there and the qualities you list can be reproduced. What I am finding is the issue lies with how digital playback happens. Generally it is just not able to recreate the qualities of the sound that you feel are missing (me too).

This was certainly the case here several months ago before my project to "fix the PC as a music server" got going last year. I know now that there are a (high) number of areas in the PC at hardware level that cause this low energy, flat 2D sound stage presentation in digital playback. It was this lack of real energy presentation and "hash" in the music that I could just not settle to in the long term. I have simply spent too many years with the top of kit working on it to get the natural wall of sound experience you refer to. This had to be fixed or I was going to need either a new hobby or a vinyl playback replay chain (with all it many frustrations :-( ).

I had a hunch that these problems are introduced by the digital replay chain not by the ADC of the recordings. What I am listening to here now defiantly supports this. I can say that there is goodness in most digital recordings of analogue masters. Poor analogue recording or poor ADC and the digital replay is poor but if the digital replay system is able to do the re-master justice then the energy, 3D stage with depth etc is there (and in large amounts).

Where things are now.

Well bags of energy, 3d image, deep wall of sound and rhythm. All the good points of digital preserved: detail, control, bass quality, convenience.

I do not have a vinyl replay system these days but I know what happened years ago when I did back to back comparison and it is exactly what you describe. Vinyl had it for me back then. Now if I were to A B my current system with vinyl I am quite sure it would be a different conclusion.

Here at least its not the lack of a pre amp or USB cable type(although I agree these will have an affect), or the quality of the ADC that the matering happened on. Its the PC that kills the sound. And I know where and how it does it  Luckily I no longer feel the need for a new hobby or vinyl rig .... which is great

Kind Regards.

[christoffe]

Its the PC that kills the sound. And I know where and how it does it  Luckily I no longer feel the need for a new hobby or vinyl rig .... which is great

Kind Regards.

Hi Nick,

where can I buy this PC?

Joachim

[PeterSt]

So Nick ... another one who loves the sound of vinyl eh ?

Something must be basically wrong in the first place.

But maybe we can get another 100 votes for vinyl ? I mean, nothing wrong with that and possibly this is what this topic was for. But my arguments seem to be quite different and also here and there supported with some real comparison and proof and blahblah. But you shouldn't find this strange when I try to have a SNR of 120dB after amplification while LP is already unlistenable because of the "inner groove" or whatever it's called noise, blasting through the room.

All I want to say is (and I say the same to Joachim or any of the further 98 votes coming up) : Don't try to mimic the souind of vinyl or take that as the reference, because it really is the wrong approach. It is technically worse and therefore should be worse sound wise.
That we might perceive it differently can spring from a 100 other reasons, but saying that digital is wrong while over here this is not so at all (and vinyl is plainly unlistenable though elsewhere) is too much of it. And I know Nick, that is not really what you're saying, but meanwhile you take vinyl as the reference. And that can't be so ...
Try me.

Regards,
Peter

[christoffe]

-   I’m wondering about the missing energy (with the 1$USB cable) of the “DDD” CD’s compared to vinyl. Is the omitted preamp the reason?

Something else is, as it seems, that you take for granted that DDD recordings are the better ones over AAD etc. I wouldn't know why ... OK
But it depends on the mastering engineer. So if we first assume that the later it gets in time, the more is molested for digital, then ADD should be worse than AAD and DDD should be worse than ADD. OK
Of course this doesn't make really sense, but my point could be : anything which was not touched much other than "just digitize it" is way way better than anything from later. The remaster sh*t and such. OK

So another point we could disagree over. NO

Peter

Hi,

my opinion is based on the AAD- or ADD-CD'S I is  listened to, and the SQ of this CD's is not on par with the vinyls.

Joachim

[christoffe]

So Nick ... another one who loves the sound of vinyl eh ?

Something must be basically wrong in the first place.

But maybe we can get another 100 votes for vinyl ? I mean, nothing wrong with that and possibly this is what this topic was for. But my arguments seem to be quite different and also here and there supported with some real comparison and proof and blahblah. But you shouldn't find this strange when I try to have a SNR of 120dB after amplification while LP is already unlistenable because of the "inner groove" or whatever it's called noise, blasting through the room.

All I want to say is (and I say the same to Joachim or any of the further 98 votes coming up) : Don't try to mimic the souind of vinyl or take that as the reference, because it really is the wrong approach. It is technically worse and therefore should be worse sound wise.
That we might perceive it differently can spring from a 100 other reasons, but saying that digital is wrong while over here this is not so at all (and vinyl is plainly unlistenable though elsewhere) is too much of it. And I know Nick, that is not really what you're saying, but meanwhile you take vinyl as the reference. And that can't be so ...
Try me.

Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

I don't agree, because then the SQ of the $1 USB is wrong, but the SQ of this cable is very near to the vinyl sound.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

my opinion is based on the AAD- or ADD-CD'S is listened to, and the SQ of this CD's is not on par with the vinyls.

Yes clear. But it should also be clear that you like to listen to vinyl which is worse than today's digital.
You do get my message, right ?

One problem in this is, that me myself and I are saying that. So what is *that* worth ? I guess nothing much.
This is how we could start distortion figures and so much more like digital filtering. I'm afraid though it is infinitely more complex because once things start to be really "good" (as how I can judge it from my own system) the potential problems only get bigger. And Joachim, you may or may not recognize it, but you said it yourself :

I just made the experience that during our march improving the SQ of the music we have no reference point. There is no starting point/ fall back for a comparison. We are going ahead and do not know if we are on the right track.

So I agree with that. But maybe I am more fast on juding the real merits - at least some times (haha). So the ever again example : try Windows 7 again. Undoubtedly you will find it better and possibly because closer to vinyl. But try it for longer than a week. I don't think you will survive that, because it too clearly shows the distortion. Now vinyl ... there you don't hear the distortion because, well, that is masked by a million other distortions and you prefer it.
I will die.
But what I do is improve (or at least try to and very explicitly) on what can be improved audibly. I will NEVER chose the "least bad". But now this is because I think I already have that "fine" reference. Let's say this starts with a bass that behaves well. So what could I do this very day with a bass which does not ? Chose for what to survive it ?

This is how we become subjective.
Much more to say, but ...

[PeterSt]

I don't agree, because then the SQ of the $1 USB is wrong, but the SQ of this cable is very near to the vinyl sound.

You keep on doing it ...
(take vinyl als Walhalla)

But what are you REALLY saying ?
Think of it ... You are saying that the USB cable (of which 10 are being packed at this very moment) must be very wrong, because they can't resemble vinyl because our 1$ already does that.

You are turning yourself into a knot, OR you are right.
But in that case I am very wrong.

Can be ...
Peter

[PeterSt]

Joachim - different angle :

You ordered that Elvis Presley CD with the Fever track. I assume you have it by now.
And ?

[christoffe]

Joachim - different angle :

You ordered that Elvis Presley CD with the Fever track. I assume you have it by now.
And ?

Hi,

no, not arrived until today, but I have the vinyl and will listen to this song tomorrow.

Joachim

[manisandher]

I have a fundamental issue that I just haven't been able to figure out...

I bought what was considered (and still is by many) to be the best ADC ever created. (I tried a whole bunch of more modern ADCs too, but they were all worse.) I bought and tried a number of different PC interfaces with this ADC. I have what is undoubtedly (on this forum at least) the best software player and DAC in the world.

It should have been trivial for my digital capture and playback system to totally recreate the 'inferior' sound of vinyl, and yet my needle drops ALWAYS sounded worse than the original vinyl. Peter, can you give me an explanation as to why this was the case?

Mani.

[christoffe]

I don't agree, because then the SQ of the $1 USB is wrong, but the SQ of this cable is very near to the vinyl sound.

You keep on doing it ...
(take vinyl als Walhalla)

But what are you REALLY saying ?
Think of it ... You are saying that the USB cable (of which 10 are being packed at this very moment) must be very wrong, because they can't resemble vinyl because our 1$ already does that.

You are turning yourself into a knot, OR you are right.
But in that case I am very wrong.

Can be ...
Peter

Hi,

I don't understand a word from above.    

let me explain.

I'm a fan of the "YFS data only cable" with the wonderful timbre of all instruments and voices (I wrote it before). http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=3042.msg33998#msg33998

The $1 USB does not reproduce the timbre of the YFS, and the "vinyl" powerful 3D image of the soundstage and that "wall of sound" impression in total. But the  $1 USB cable is a good compromise between all and I can live with it.

Joachim