Best Vinyl Rig

[PeterSt]

Uh-ohh ... I am afraid you drag in too much to let sound something better than it does ...

First off, I said that no merits should be taken from what I said about the plots. So no need to work that out I'd say.
Secondly, I don't think I ever said that this particular album even *has* the LF output (now confuse yourself with the "merit" of what you see in the CD plot, ok ?).

Then you make the biggest mistake by thinking that no LP *requires* high passing. Of course it does. Only when nothing of LF is in there to begin with (by guarantee) it is not needed.
And the other way around of course : if nothing is in there no CD will "be better" for that reason anyway. And then again, when the LP is highpassed but the CD is taken from that same "master" then no CD is better for that reason (count 99%++ CD to be that so bad luck).

Shall we now hop over to the 40-60dB inherent noise and a nice subject how that will improve the sound ? Ok, make 70dB of that if you like. But I thought we were over that subject. I mean, that we could skip it. But when you are so persistent it is a subject. Apparently ?

Well, if you think 'limiting' on CDs is OK, then perhaps. But for me, it is totally, totally unnecessary - I mean, why do it?...

That too I did not say. Not at all. But it testifies a little how moods are going to influence the subject. It's okay if I was first. But of course, *any* limiting is not OK; what I suggested it that in many occasions it can not be avoided (like live recordings) while additionally I can tell that it can be avoided if you're left with 24dB or whatever headroom to be always on the safe side. And *that* does not work at all (try Crime of The Century (Supertramp)).
If you are suggesting that for this CD transfer - assumed the master is the same for both LP and CD - it is total nonsense that limiting has been applied, then I agree of course. However, this is already what I assume(d) and all I say is that this is harmless in comparison with all the downsides from ... well, whatever it is I listen to for the LP version (think your external recording device etc.). Not in general, but in this situation (only a little limiting). This in itself is not a general remark, because it is related to how much worse it can be.

I think we better cut this out because it is about one thing only : how totally poor the LP version sounds.
This leads to the actual problem perhaps : that you don't agree. Or for 50% you do but I wouldn't be satisfied with that if I were you. Why ? because there is no 50% in my view. It is total rubbish - that bad. So I would make that the concern)(uhm, yours). You don't perceive it or don't want to perceive it or something I don't think of. And the biggest problem with this is that I can't see how it ever can be my fault. I mean, I just play two 16/44.1 files.
Also, I am honest like with the Talk Talk example. So it can't be that either.

I wish you had other speakers and all because in that case we could call it a day. For example if Joachim tells that this last strike sounds exactly the same on both versions then this is quite acceptable for me because of too many things different. If you tell this, something is going on and the most easy explanation is that you did not learn to hear it.
So Mani, you know (from experience) that there will be no single way that when we'd both listen to something we will disagree once it is pointed out. And yuo are for sure not the only one who can testify this. So, easy enough. But what did I say ? "when pointed out". All what might happen is that you point out your goose bumps from LP while I will not receive those for being too disturbed by other things first. So let this be subjective of some kind. And yes, you may even declare that LP the winner for it. I have no problems with that. But then the response must be something like : you are correct, CD is 100% better on all technical aspects; too bad it doesn't give me goose bumps. I for 100% sure will accept that and it would give me something to think about and something to do.

Let's start with those woofers. Don't feel a difference ? then there is no difference (say). But when you do feel a difference then start thinking about whether you heard it. Of course you already said so, but this is about the details you feel (not only stiff bass etc.) and whether you perceive that. No ? then practice with it.

Ok, never to forget, all ever in good spirit. But it gets challenging a little ...
Best regards,
Peter

[manisandher]

I think we better cut this out...

Yep, happy to do that. But just a few points of clarification from my side first:

Then you make the biggest mistake by thinking that no LP *requires* high passing.

C'mon, I never said that. I said that it's clear from the plot that there's no 30Hz high pass filter applied to this particular LP, as you suggested there was (before I put up the plot). I mean, just look at the plot. Do you really see a sharp drop-off below 30Hz? I don't see it. the drop-off below 10Hz is more a feature of my turntable than anything else. Now, my LP is a Stockfisch Direct Metal Master LP. There's a ton of information on the process they use, and although they don't specifically mention it, I strongly suspect they do NOT apply a high pass filter. FWIW, my old turntable/arm/cartridge cannot play this LP at all without gross distortion.

... it is about one thing only : how totally poor the LP version sounds.

Yes, agreed. My recording (the 16/44.1 file I posted) sounds poor in comparison to the CD.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Do you really see a sharp drop-off below 30Hz?

Please read back on what I said about this. Not that at all.

Now we agree about everything. Hahaha.

Thank you Mani,
Peter

[christoffe]

For example if Joachim tells that this last strike sounds exactly the same on both versions then this is quite acceptable for me because of too many things different.

Hi,

soooooo,

I checked this "last strike" with the "near field" monitors at my PC too,

and

I played this strike on my e-guitar.

This strike is a very light "capo" grip with a soft touch and nooo string is vibrating, and that is the sound we hear!

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Hi Joachim,

Yes, funny, because this is all "flagiolette" (in a chord now). So now you know !

Regards,
Peter

[christoffe]

Hi Joachim,

Yes, funny, because this is all "flagiolette" (in a chord now). So now you know !

Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

No, at that last "strike" no string is vibrating.
It is very easy to hear during the song, when the string is free for "swinging" vibrations.

see here a link on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld6ochRUHvM
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QLPZ4KEtzw

so you see the last "strike" is not ................ .

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Hey Joachim,

Should be a misunderstanding, but I did not say that any string needs to vibrate. It is only that this is almost unavoidable for a double bass (length of the sting and thus excursion of it).
So it is the other way around (and I tried to explain that) : the string is damped by means of not pressing it to the frets (neck) etc. and/but by pressing it a little only.

Now I am not sure whether you am now telling me what flagiolette is or that wwe try to sort out symantics or that you think the strike at the end is not "flagiolette" ...
But since you showed those YouTubes (I did not listen because of no sound) you can only disagree about the latter.

But I can go somewhat further (without taking the YouTube guitar lessons ;-) :
Of course the string can still vibrate if you like because that is just a matter of pressing the string against the fret somewhat more (or less). Also, literally speaking the string always vibrates (otherwise no sound) so it is a matter of whether it vibrates against the neck or not (so I suppose you talk about that).

Why do you think a guitar has frets in the first place ?
-> Easier to play the normal fundamental because of the space under the string between the frets and not so hard pressure is needed to get that right. But press a bit less and the string vibrates against the last fret (and have a mixture of that and flagiolette) and press again less and it is flagiolette only.
And oh, no frets are needed at all for a guitar, and without exist too (for sure you will have seen bass guitars without).

So if you now again envision the double bass (the Ray Brown one) and for fun grab in Pythagoras (I dod not) and measure the length of the string up to the end of the neck (say 1m80 or so). Now look at the distance of the string to the neck (this is not equal for the whole neck, but say 3mm on average). Now pluck the string at the under side outwards (slap it inwards is also OK) for 1cm (easy to do). Next do a^2 + b^2 = c^2 and see the distance "needed" at the end of the neck. Now see whether more than 3mm is needed at the end of the neck. Yes ? then you will know that you are not able to make that even 0mm with your finger because in advance of that the string will hit the neck. Now though something else will happen because the string is more foreceful than your finger can keep is pressed again the neck and thus you damp it.
And there's the unavoidable flagiolette.

Of course it can be avoided by less hard plucking/slapping. But since it is the extra dimension of playing such instrument this is most often not done (apart from not being loud enough now).

The fact that the string can vibrate against the neck (or fret when there) is another phenomenon than the flagiolette itself. So the bass player too can play normal flagiolette without the metal sound from the string hitting the neck. Take a bow and damp the string instead of pressing it against the neck at all, and there you have it.

Something else is that a guitar player too can do this (not make the string hit the fret) and I am sure you will see that in the YouTubes. But now something else is going on because now the guitar player is suddenly allowed to play all notes not determined by the frets (they are just not used now to determine the "pre-set" notes. But now he will definitely play flagiolettes only and no hitting of the frets will be there.

Btw, this last hit from Chris Jones should be quite special to let sound right, because to me it looks quite difficult to find a nice chord for all the strings (so striking them all) where the harmonics implied all work out. Ok, this is a matter of just knowing of course.

Yeah, what a lot of text about almost nothing. But it could be worth while because Joachim, just FYI, when you visited us - the first NOS1 era, my system did not show much of flagiolettes. The NOS1-USB started to do that. And so I say it again : the better the system renders all, the better flagiolettes come forward. Even that metal of the plucking of such bass I did not perceive back then. Now it is all over. And logic, because it can't even be avoided as said, when plucking. So easy (once you know) when you don't perceive this "all over" then there's something to improve.

Lastly, back to the real subject : one of the first things I noticed with the comparison of the Chris Jones track was "no flagiolettes anywhere". I only heard that when I played the CD as the second (so this went unnoticed when playing the LP version as the first). But this is also how that last strike sounds very "different" ... obviously.
It really *is* crucial for that other dimension, because it is used all over and I am sure you recognize it from the YouTubes. So the better the system, the better these kind of (fairly infinite) variations the artist applies can be heard.

Sorry if this was all "over done", but it is just a key subject for me ...

Best regards,
Peter

[GerardA]

Hi Peter,

Funny you mention these flagiolettes.
It looks they are exactly the things to listen for at setting the VTA (Vertical tracking angle) as described here: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_method_e.html
That's the fun of vinyl, you can make it sound the way you like best...
And even for every individual lp.

[christoffe]

A)
Now I am not sure whether you am now telling me what flagiolette is or that wwe try to sort out symantics or that you think the strike at the end is not "flagiolette" ... (correct)
But since you showed those YouTubes (I did not listen because of no sound) you can only disagree about the latter.

B)
Lastly, back to the real subject : one of the first things I noticed with the comparison of the Chris Jones track was "no flagiolettes anywhere". I only heard that when I played the CD as the second (so this went unnoticed when playing the LP version as the first). But this is also how that last strike sounds very "different" ... obviously.

Hi Peter,

A)
the youtube videos makes sence with a sound only, and then you will see/hear HOW  "flagiolette" is played.

When you pluck at the guitar a free string then you hear a sound.
When you touch the string above a fret or anywhere on the fretboard  with your finger very, very soft only, you hear ....... NOTHING! (no vibrations of the string)
When you press the string  down  to two adjacent frets then you hear a sound again.

"Flagiolette" is, you touch a string above a certain fret or anywhere on the fretboard very soft only, and "during/at the same time" of the pluck to that string you LIFT the finger.

B)

This is strange and makes me wonder, because the "flagiolette" sound of the guitar is very present on both versions from Manis LP rips on my system.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Hi again Joachim,

The big mistake is that you can only hear the sound (when the string is touched only) when your "system" is able to show it. No single YouTube is going to do that ...

This is also how you perceive the sound of that last strike from CJ the same on both versions - your system must be able to dig out all first (and the CD contains much more ot it, I tell you). And if it sounds the same to you on both versions it can only mean that it doesn't (system etc.).

Regards,
Peter

PS: Maybe it helps if I tell you I own a few guitars myself, including a bass guitar. Not double bass - that doesn't fit anywhere here. Haha.

[PeterSt]

Joachim,

Coincidentally Stanley Clarke - East River Drive - Track 08 just started playing when I finished my post above. This is all pure flagiolette only in the first 15 seconds or so and the level is almost the same as the normally pressed strings. It could be a reference for you.
Btw I said pure also because it's almost nice sines you hear. Why ? just (try to) leave out all the other harmonics (and the fundamental). So the trick is that the electric bass is fairly square for its sound - now it is not at all (normally fundamental plus all harmonics form the square).
Reoccurs many times in the track.

Peter

[christoffe]

Hi,

This thread should/will enhance my listening experiences and so I dug into details (flagiolett)  mentioned by Peter.

Some infos at front: for “flagiolett”  the English term is “natural harmonix”

The links in Youtube are acoustically very good to follow with separate small active computer loudspeakers, such as one from Logitech, and we can hear every detail.

To get an idea how the artist plays the “natural harmonix” the link A) and B) shows very good samples.
In video B) Tommy Emmanual gives a public lesson, and watch to the end of the video the action of his thumb and index finger.
Link C) shows the “natural harmonix” on a bass guitar, if somebody is interested.

A)   Link of „natural harmonixs“ for a guitar  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ6HKrFFM_4
B)   Tommy Emmanual lesson  link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-q-aMnYXb8
C)   and a link for a bass guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHx3RVCcuuo

Happy watching and listening.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Joachim - Great YouTubes. Thanks ...

I now watched *and* listened to them all, and I'd like to encourage people who can't decide which one to look to look at this one at least : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QLPZ4KEtzw
(the second one from your earlier post)

Now notice that I watched this one on an iPad flat a bit tiled on a (wooden) surface and while such thing is mono (spekar at the back side), I think it can express what I want to make clear for the fragility how this all operates ...

I think it is the first YouTube where the (famous for it) guy tells about how the "harmoinics ring into each other". However, while the sound is great he doesn't explain it and you won't be able to perceive that. Maybe it was also him who tells that guitarist use the flagiolettes to far more easily tune their guitar strings. This is how I like to direct you to the link from Joachim I gave above. And PC speakers may not easily do what I like to tell about it. So :

What you can beautifulle hear in that YouTube is how the same tones (call them harmonics, while the fundamental technically is not that) can "ring" into eachother; they oscillate. And the closer the flagiolette is used at the correct spot, the slower this oscillation occurs. N.b.: This is actually the "beating" again we discussed a year back or so.
When both are exactly in tune no oscillation occurs, but still the fundamental plus thus all it harmonics sounds different than the harmonic alone.

What I now like you to do is pereceive the super fragility of this and how when even the slightest is wrong, it does not work out "beautiful". Hard to explain of course, but think there's a dimension beyond what you hear from the YouTube and how it can be rendered on the better system. So of course (Joachim) you hear from the PC speakers (and 128kbs or less lousy YouTube) that the flagiolette works, but it is about the nuances and for example how they work unintendedly because the guitarist (or bass player) is so fast with his playing that the flagiolette emerges in tiny detail only. So envision, this is only a matter of just slightly wrong timing, and strike the string with the finger needed on e.g. the 12th fret (but you will have seen that many more positions exist) and because he quickly needs to go to the next tone or chord it works out briefly at the flagiolette. Matter of not being able to fully press the string against the fret, which logically can occur when letting it go to quickly while plucking the string (just too late).

I try to emphazise it again : Listen to that YouTube I gave the link from, and just dive into the beauty of the sound which IMO is not difficult because it is more beautiful than a nice lady's voice. But try to capture it like I did with the iPad with its speaker at the back side reflecting the surface it is on and your head maybe 20cm max from it. Now you are "in" the sound literally and all works together (nothing different from speakers in the room when it "works" (!).

So it is these details which come more forward with the better system, and let's say that this is just the more detailed rendering of an anomaly (when the player hasn't got his timing right).
I could also try to say that the purity of the harmonics alone (supposed one of them can be played - but see the YouTubeS because the more towards the bridge the more you incur for harmonics close to the end of the spectrum, now all those under it eliminated) ... is an exhibit of the well rendering system to begin with. Just think how pure and undistorted a sine can sound, while some distortion makes less of that. And not so many pure sines around to begin with ... but from flagiolettes, yes.

In the end it will be nothing less than logic that the better system shows the flagiolettes better. Anyway for me it is a measure, but you have to run into the possible difference one time. So just saying : that (damped ! - fingers don't leave the string fully) strike at the end of Chris Jones I most probably always heard. But maybe just over a year ago (ok, should be new speakers) I started to say "huh ?!?" because I never heard it, and today (Blaxius) it simpy blasts through the room. I am serious. Not at all with the LP version; there it is as 2 years ago, and I only hear it because I now know it is there. No need to explain *that* because we all know about the phenomenon (once you know, then ...).

So it is super fragile and therefore a very good measure.

Regards,
Peter

[christoffe]

................. and today (Blaxius) it simpy blasts through the room. I am serious.

Hi Peter,

perfect, AND ....... WHERE is my Blaxius ordered in October?

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Joachim ... sometimes I am sure you are not reading the forum ...
If I had made it in October then you would have had everything wrong. Missed that 4 times if not more ??

But I am going to make a few today - yours too if all is right.

Peter