Best Vinyl Rig

[PeterSt]

What's in a title ...
Nothing much, but now Google finds it and possibly it can set some vinyl die-hards straight who Google for it.

And at the time of that post XXHighEnd was virtually lousy sounding (which at that time we found *very* good).
But as time goes by ...

Some three weeks ago I have been listening to a couple of 20K-30K turntables with 4K pickup elements, and I must honestly say ...

The vinyl guys just don't know what they are missing ...
Suddenly they have an enormeous set back.

I have planned some more explicit comparison sessions (a.o. with the fameous mr. Van den Hul who lives 300 meters down the road), and as far as I can be objective, I'll report back.


About above mentioned set back ... of course I should be more explicit, but since all was heard through a for me unknown system, I think it is dangerous to point out specifics. I can say though, that where everybody was raving about what they heard (tenths of people visited this "national pick-up days" as how the sessions were called), I really couldn't find a reason to.

One of the most remarkeable things I noticed, was that playing an expensive turntable seems more difficult then ripping, tuning your PC and all. If there's not unsolveable hum from the beginning and 10 people scientifically working out how to route the earthings, then there's airflow noise from air-bearing tangential arms. Hahaha.
Browsing LP's smelled nice as usual, but it's really no way of finding your music. Not for me, not anymore. But that's another matter of course.

More from me (many weeks) later.
Peter

So this was from 2007. Wow; I estimated it was 4 or 5 years ago, but it was thus 7. I always wanted to go to this annual event again but always missed it (like seeing that it happened "yesterday"). This year I finally managed;
My idea was to see whether vinyl has caught up a bit with digital. Or say that would have been my planned expression would I have been asked my reason to attend there.

Yes, so this 2007 event was clearly before any NOS1 saw light which I only realize just now after looking up the above quote. That could explain a few things too ...

Those vinyl guys eh, are they sure they know what they are doing ? Oh boy.
So, of course I have 7 more years of (explicit) experience behind me, which can be compared to 2 years in 2007 (were it about that "explicit" experience and XXHighEnd and such).  Say something like 7000 hours of listening and comparing and how things must sound neutral and not disturbing and better and, well, everything.
And this now makes vinyl as obsolete and wrong as possible. A few observations with the notice that I listened to dozens of random turntables with cartridges (all just cleaned / rewired if necessary / calibrated because the event is about that). And of course there was the the show case turntable for when no just calibrated was around for a few minutes :

- All sounds the same and I can't stand this in the first place;
- All highs are totally smeared (run full we say in Dutch);
- It was very very tough to perceive stereo from it in the first place (don't believe me eh ? - it's just what you are used to);
- Sound is way too warm (cal this subjective to be on the safe side);
- There is this continuous white/grey (killing) flavour;
- Listened to the tweeter from close by and ohhh, NOW you know what noise is (always thought that the "inaudible" noise from LP influences the signal to some degree, but this is just plainly audible like some sea at 10 meters distance);
- Played the same albums at home afterwards and couldn't even recognize them (actually it was the way around which is why I tried them at home);

After two hours I was completely deaf of it. Didn't know where to go from bad sound. A bit hard to expain;

I always say (said) : Vinyl can't go wrong; will never be harsh and such. Well, that now too depends;
Envision the guy behind the wheel showing what a (kork) mat can do. "See ? now the harshness has gone - much more black background !". Damn, he was right. Too bad the highs were gone too. And if you compare the both situations (which happened for many turntables) then indeed even LP can sound harsh. But even without mat, after these hours I had a complete stuffed ears feeling which seemed physical (damage) to me. But more complicated :

If you are used to hearing where a voice sings and that can't happen any more (because he/she is everywhere) then that too causes "damage". You brain keeps on trying and trying but it won't happen because not there. Now *that* is tiring !
But it is just an example, because recognizing instruments is even way worse than a worst D/A converter (say the oversampling type with the wrong filtering and such). And want a surprise ? Violins. Oh yes, I sure recognized them from the home I grew up in, but you know what ? THAT is digital. All high frequency sibilance but actually that noise running through it all over (I reckoned).

After these two hours I thought to reset myself with telling myself something like "okay, this cant happen and so it won't - now relax and try to judge the possible goodies". This was not really about the latter, but about the former and how I could survive longer. That helped and in the end I was there for 5 hours. Just judging how instruments came through and focusing on how that would sound back home. Now, I'll give two examples only :

There was this track of which I thought I knew it in the first place. Fine. But there was a clear on-beat hit on some snare or maybe even lick drum and I couldn't recognize it while it should be so clear. A firm hitting with rather silence around it, so it should be obvious, but wasn't.
Back home I checked it and could hardly believe what the "reality" was ... Rest the end (not the top) of drum stick on the skin of the snare (snare on), and let it drop in "dry" fashion on the rim (dry = not bounce). That was all. Dry "ticking" (think jazz like) while at that best turntable it was a smash with deep sound which filled the room. No wonder you can't recognize it.

Of course nobody complained.

An example of different kind was some Tikaram track which showed a work out of "some" percussion element that drew fairly much to the left side (oh, so still stereo) with a decay which was nice for a gag but I couldn't tell what actually happened or what it was. It was here that I seriously thought, "okay, I don't think my "rig" can do that, ehm oops ?".
So back home I played that too and it was just a tambourine and all over normal. True, no gags showed and also true, it was less "interesting" back at home. Sadly also true is that from LP this was super distortions working out to something real strange. Doh, it even implies an emphasized stereo effect.

So did vinyl improve over these 7 years ?
No, it went 100 steps back (I tend to say a 100 times but alas).
But you know what I mean.

You vinyl guys, you should come out of your hiding shells !

Of course when I attend shows I hear vinyl all over the place just the same. Never sounds bad. But you know, you should listen to one such a rig for an hour instead of "walking by" and *then* you'll know.
Also, there is no single way I perceived this the same as 7 years ago; then I wasn't hurt or anything. It just sounded poor on aspects and that was it. Today ? it is nowhere. And I don't exaggerate a single byte. Not even a bit.

Peter

[AlainGr]

I got rid of my turntable some 7 months ago and that was after maybe 15 years of not listening to my LPs. An Oracle Alexandria (for those who remember the Oracle Delphi, the Alexandria was the "little sister") with a Grace F9e (moving magnet and still working). I have kept a few LPs to have them extracted when I will feel like it (there are some of them that were never transferred to CDs, some other CDs have a "chocked" sound (loss of treble) as opposed to their vinyl equivalents.

I still remember some albums that were sounding great on vinyl, but this was at an age where I had not already damaged my own hearing with too loud music. Remembering how the music sounded then was enough for me to decide not to listen again, just in case I would regret turning into the digital age.

At the time I bought my first CD player (Harman Kardon model 7600, bought in 1990), I was amazed by the absence of clics, pops, wow - and the bass tightness was amazing. Then I realized how easy it was now to play music (without going through all the routine of cleaning the disk with a brush, cleaning the stylus, etc...).

I was ready to abandon all for the practicality the CD was bringing and when I finally decided to extract all my CDs on a hard drive, it was clear to me that I would never go back to vinyl.

It was not a matter of being better of worse, just one of being "easy" to manage. I have given up for all those times where I was going back to the store with one or more bad pressings (hole not centered, warped record, noisy background from a too worn matrix). IIRC in those times, there was 1 out of 2 records that were somewhat badly pressed (here in Canada at least). I had enough of all this.

Compared to vinyl, I had trouble with only a few CDs and this was enough for me to turn my back on vinyl - for good.

The only thing I could say I regret is that a turntable was the most beautiful piece of art from the audio chain. Dual 1229, Garrard Zero-100, Lenco L78, JVC direct drive, Thorens TD-160 and finally the Oracle (made here, in Quebec)... All these were good at their times, even if the mechanism was not up to par with the best belt driven turntables of the time (Pierre Clément, Linn Sondek, Sota Sapphire)...

I don't have a regret from these times. I was ready to spend all the time necessary to clean and play my vinyls, but that is definitely behind me and has been for the last 15 years now.

Alain

[manisandher]

Hey thanks for sharing Peter (and for sharing your experience too Alain). Well, I've had my turntable set up in my little basement 'studio' for a while now but haven't actually gotten around to doing any recording yet. But your post has got me motivated. I'll see if I can get myself downstairs this evening and do something. I'll then be happy to share the file(s) if anyone's interested.

Mani.

[christoffe]

Hi,

since last year I’m digitizing LP’s which are not available on CD’S  (Jaco Pastorius and various MPS records etc.).

Peter wrote in the Forum  a couple of weeks ago that his copies of digitized LP’s sounds „suboptimal“, what I have to confirm (no cymbals, no bass, no kick drums)

Since two month I’m cleaning the LP’s  prior to digitizing with a washing machine (Gläss Vinyl Cleaner: http://www.audiodesksysteme.de/index.php?kat=10_17_15 ) and the SQ improved amazingly and I enjoy to listen to the old records again.

The washing process with the LP‘s is mandatory for a good sound!!!

Joachim

[manisandher]

Since two month I’m cleaning the LP’s  prior to digitizing with a washing machine (Gläss Vinyl Cleaner: http://www.audiodesksysteme.de/index.php?kat=10_17_15 ) and the SQ improved amazingly and I enjoy to listen to the old records again.

Hi Joachim, yes I have one of these too and clean all of my LPs before playing. All I have to do now is get down to serious digitizing. (But at least it hasn't taken me 7+ years to do this!)

Mani.

[listening]

I'm using since 1980 the Micro Seiki MR-711 player until tody with changing cartridges and phono stages. Neither the cartrides nor the phono stages have exceeded the 600$ limit ...

There is no doubt that the sonic quality of XXHighend with NOS DAC's is by far better, in every aspect.

I look at the analogue system as a beloved oldtimer with a lot of vinyl based music that is not available anymore. It's more the the heart than the brain that is counting.

I tried a lot to digitize the music but was not satisfied with the results. There is the time aspect too - digitizing 9000 LP's would be a lot of work. I will leave the music on the medium where it belongs to.

What I can confirm too is the need of a really good cleaning - I do it with a DIY ultrasonic cleaning device.

Georg

[CoenP]

Hi,

I do not consider myself a vinyl guy but I confess guilty of listening to LPs and enjoying it.

The urge to play records seems to come and go. When everything goes, there is fantastic flow and momentum in the music, real easy on the mind. I'm not much bothered by the surface noise ticks, dynamic compression etc etc it music first. This is so hard to achieve with digital. The biggest drawback is that it is only 30 minutes of bliss and then you have to leave your chair. I also love the aplomb it has especially on modest hifi systems. It also works wonders on mono recordings.

From a holistic viewpoint I think this natural gap in the music might be key to the LP experience. After each half you have to decide what to do: spin it again, flip it or get another disk. The ritual of selecting, sliding the disk out, get the right side up, brush clean it etc is more conscious and makes you value the listening experience more. At some stage the inconvenient and unpractical side of this all does move me in the direction of digital again until the LP tide returns.

Now I stil have to agree with Peter's statements on high end vinyl rigs and show experiences. Apparently manufacturers, reviewers and customers have decided that the LP playback sound should have "no character of its own" or be "neutral", a thing that digital does much much much much better. They've brought it to a place where it is my opinion that the essence of the medium is lost. Not that it sounds bad, but I've never been lusting for this gear after a demo knowing that my digital system at home does all it tries to achieve a 100x better.

Horses for courses thus and enjoying both for what they do now. I'm certainly not finished with my digital so we'll see what more can be extracted from the medium...

regards, Coen

[christoffe]

What I can confirm too is the need of a really good cleaning - I do it with a DIY ultrasonic cleaning device.

Georg

Hi,

the funny/strange thing was, that I treated the new LP,s with  „LAST“, and dubbed them on a magnetic band (Studer A810) and took  them in a shelf until now.
So I used the LP one time only, and now there are clicks all over, and with the washing machine the clicks are reduced.

In other words, the „LAST“ treatment procedure in the 80ies was not for the better.

Joachim

[AlainGr]

I remember using the LAST product for all my LPs and their Stylast to clean the stylus before every play I also bought plastic sleeves to protect each LP from being scratched with the paper sleeve (when there was one)...

These where fun times and almost "spiritual" ones

Alain

[phantomax]

These where fun times and almost "spiritual" ones

Ha ha Alain! Totally agree. It was something like a Mass with all the parafernalia. 

Maxi

[AlainGr]

Hi Maxi,

True When we grouped to listen to music, I am sure that some friends were having fun seeing me doing all the stuff before playing music, but I also spent so much time alone listening to music, or maybe only with one or two friends at the time. It was intense sometimes ! I can hardly feel this nowadays and this may explain why I abandoned playing my music through LPs, but sometimes (seldom), I can go back to these times in my mind

I guess that advancing in time and having conscience of so many other things is kind of disrupting... And the time factor is one of these reasons...

Alain

[manisandher]

All I have to do now is get down to serious digitizing.

Well, I managed to find a CD and LP that are definitely from the same analogue master - Dead Can Dance's 1985 album 'Spleen and Ideal'. This is definitely NOT an 'audiophile demonstration disc', but good enough for the purpose. I digitized track 8 Avatar at 16/44.1 using my PMII. The LP 16/44.1 is clearly better than the CD rip. Paul (Scroobius) was here for a short while today and he preferred the LP 16/44.1 too (both played back on XX with double-octo AP).

Virtually every LP I play back on my turntable sounds totally superb. Really. But I don't have it connected up to my main system - I play back on AKG K-1000 headphones powered by a pair of Bert's BD30-SPR amps.

When I have more time (not this week) I will try to find more CDs and LPs produced from the same master and record more 16/44.1 files. If the same differences are there, I'll have to respectfully disagree with Peter and assume he hasn't heard a really good turntable set up. Mine is not the most expensive, but I've taken an inordinate amount of time to set it up probably.

Oh, I'll try to upload the two Dead Can Dance files up onto a file sharing site. Not the best recordings or music, but just so that you can listen for yourself. Will try to do this this week sometime.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Haha, well, then I have to respectfully disagree with your testing methods.
Please take the below with some grains of pepper (not salt) because I just see some fun in this and it is not to be taken as a rant.

So first you take a CD of which you seem to know that the CD isn't the best anyway, to next come to the conclusion that the LP is better than the CD rip, while it would be you stating that you won't hear a difference with any needle drop in the first place (I know, I know, you will say this from 24/192 but I hope you get the idea - what drips/droops from it is that the CD isn't the best in the first place or how else can your needle drop be better).

Next up is my own Mofi MFSL etc. (Japan) and now I don't know what is called audiophile demonstration discs these days, but it sounds superb - here. Again, I know I know, I can't compare it to the LP.

Then you use headphones. Always nice and people keep on thinking that they can perceive ALL from it, but I keep on saying that you can't hear nothing much from them. Small example : put up track 1. Now try to perceive the 6-10Hz flanger from that. Try your CD version on the main system and see whether it's there from that. Feel your woofers, you know (and if not MSFl then most probably forget that to begin with).
Also, are you going to try that with the LP with all the effort it takes, or will you believe it won't be in there anyway ? Count on the latter.
Of course you can try to feel your headphones, but that won't be necessary either I'd say.

Lastly, we should not talk about "superb" but about reality (I think we are up to that and it is *there* where the LP fails all over) - with concrete examples. This brings me to track 8 which is the best case of not knowing what is going on in the first place. IOW I would have taken another track and "complain" (for the CD version).

That's all Mani; I hope you see some fun in it too.
Peter


Edit : PS: Track 6 is 22-24Hz on the "large drum" hits.

[manisandher]

Please take the below with some grains of pepper (not salt) because I just see some fun in this and it is not to be taken as a rant.

Of course!

... what drips/droops from it is that the CD isn't the best in the first place or how else can your needle drop be better...

Easy - better ADC! I'm not sure what they used back in 1985 but it sounds pretty dull and dead to me.

Then you use headphones.

Ah, I wasn't clear here. I use headphones for monitoring when I'm doing the digitizing, although I haven't actually digitized a lot as yet.

When making this comparison, I was using my main system - NOS1a 75B - Blaxius - Orelos, and this is how Paul heard things today too. No headphones anywhere!

Lastly, we should not talk about "superb" but about reality (I think we are up to that and it is *there* where the LP fails all over) - with concrete examples. This brings me to track 8 which is the best case of not knowing what is going on in the first place. IOW I would have taken another track and "complain" (for the CD version).

I agree. I just thought that if I'm going to have to listen to the same track a few times, I may as well pick my favourite. Although I'm away from home right now, I've got the two tracks with me on a USB stick. I'll try to set up the file sharing sometime this week - you can then compare to your MFSL if you feel so inclined.

Anyway, I did this all with very little time. I should have a little more time next week to do things 'properly'. The real issue is finding a (well recorded) CD and LP from the same master.

Mani.

[GerardA]

Hi Mani,
Good job!
I just bought the latest lp of Leonard Cohen and what fell out of the sleeve? A cd!
The cd and lp should be more or less identical.

Maybe I'll find the time to compare....