Best Vinyl Rig

[manisandher]

Hey Peter, thanks for giving it a listen. I don't have the CD, could you send this track to me so I can compare?

Anyway, here's another needle drop of the track - everything exactly the same, but I'm just using another digital capture method:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1x1u0d3ozvrkpci/Chris%20Jones%20-%20No%20Sanctuary%20Here%20v2.wav?dl=0

To my ears, this is better. But I'd still like to compare to the CD if possible... and then I'll be able to reply to your comments. But for now, I don't understand the "No bass AT ALL" comments - there's loads here on both versions I've posted.

Mani.

Edit: Peter, you do have HDCD switched off, right???

[christoffe]

Chris Jones - No Sanctuary Here

There are different releases of this song in Spotify/Amazon. One with  "castanets" and the other (LP) without.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Edit: Peter, you do have HDCD switched off, right???

Mani - sure !

Downloaded v2. but ... tomorrow for a listen.
Will send you the CD version.


Joachim, both the versions I compared (LP and CD) are the same.

Regards,
Peter

[christoffe]

flagiolettes

Can't find any translation/explanation in the net.

Is it  "castanets" ?

Joachim

[christoffe]

Comparison on my system between LP and CD tracks (Thank you Peter)

- No stereo (see ?); = On the LP is Stereo(listening off axis)
- Strange highs (see ?)= Nothing strange here.
- No bass AT ALL (see ?)= There is bass on the LP
- No filling of the room anywhere while this track is famous for it. = Here I can’t compete with Peters amazing sounding room


This in brief. But additionally in more detail :
No flagiolettes to be heard (always a property of the better system). = ??????
CD shows two (dubbed) voices - LP only one. = Correct, very easy to hear on the CD, on the LP most of the times  difficult to hear, but there are two dubbed voice, good to hear in the middle and end of the song.
Dead sound. Bad, poor, nothing. = ????
Watch the very last stroke on the guitar and how LP shows "a sound" while CD shows all the strings from a guitar.. = identical on both tracks

The CD produces more details, and the SPL of the LP is 6dB lower,
In absolute terms the CD track sounds better.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

flagiolettes

Can't find any translation/explanation in the net.

Is it  "castanets" ?

Hmm, interesting; someone forgot to write an English Wikipedia page for this. Here it is in German :
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flageolettton
or for the few Dutch in here :
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flageolet_(speelwijze)

And my own description (without checking against the Wikipedia pages) :

The flagiolette is one of the most crucial phenoma to check the performance of your audio chain; the better, the better the flagiolette will be audible.
Right, that's set.
When, with a string instrument, the string is half pressed on to the neck (of e.g. a violin, guitar), duch that the string is damped and not will exhibit its full power, only the overtones emerge and the fundamental is not heard. The amount of hearing the fundamental depends on the amount of "touch" the string is pressed on to the neck - the more, the more the fundamental becomes audible. The technique is not difficult to apply but it needs some "sensing" (of the finger) to do it in the right amount.
For e.g. a double bass the art is alomst the other way around, and with a firmly plucked string it requires "strong mussle" in the finger to keep the string against the neck so the fundamental is heard (when intended). Because of the lower frequency (like 38Hz) of the double bass, the flagiolette is mere heard as vibrating metal (of the string) against the neck; while this effect can be applied deliberately, it is often so that it can't be avoided like with fast plucking and the precise timing needed to fully press the string against the neck with also the fastness required because the stroke of the string actually has to be preceeded by the full press of the string. When for example Brian Blomberg slaps the double bass and which he can do in fast fashion (and more strings at the time), this is almost only flagiolette playing which can not be avoided. With for example Ray Brown - who plays more slowly and does not slap but pluck - normal fundamentals can be shown easily, while now on purpose his hard plucking combined with low pressure of the finger on the string against the neck expresses a vary loud vibrating metal sound.
When the strings are stroke with a bow the very same effect can be applied, though this now is the more fragile combination of the force put on the string with the bow and the vibrating string (half) against the neck. To do this well with varying loudless (which is pressure of the bow) while always sustaining the flagiolette sound, can be called a real skill or art.

Flagiolette from a playback system can be called another dimension because it allows tones to be heard (the overtones / harmonics) which otherwise are overwhelmed by the fundamental. When the system can not render the harmonics well, again we hear the fundamental only, though softer because physically it *is* softer.


Remove the typos and put to Wikipedia.

Peter

[PeterSt]

Okayyy ...

No stereo (see ?); = On the LP is Stereo(listening off axis)

Remember that all is relative and how I described this "phenomenon" earlier in this topic (IIRC);
Of course it is stereo, but it is hard to detect while the CD is as wide as can be with countless variation between left and right. This springs from one thing only : accuracy. But also see below.

- Strange highs (see ?)= Nothing strange here.

If I may refer to the dubbed voice not heard, now imagine what all more is not heard. I think I am able to explain : way waaay more than a double voice. I know, this is fragile too, but again it is the detail which just lacks on the LP.
Not difficult to imagine how highs sound strange (read : completely different from what I used to plus without the variation I am used to (this latter is noyt subjective of course).

- No bass AT ALL (see ?)= There is bass on the LP

Here we have a little bit more difficult problem to explain in writing (listening is super easy);
If you, Joachim, already perceive a room-filling bass sound, then try to imagine what happens with a flat to 19Hz going speaker like mine. And Mani's of course. So once and again for Mani : feel your woofers (from both verions).
Anyway, this kind of bass - which is, mind you, just from a Spanish Guitar, is processed in some way which lowers it an octave or whatever. This production company does this with all the "Spanish Guitars" and the sound from them is always similar. One of the properties is that the lower frequencies themselves (from such a guitar) have a delay or hall between left and right, and *this* is how the room filling emerges. Happens to you (Joachim) but happens to me a 10 times better because of the low frequency separation and directivity (say well executed horns for the LF).
But totally nothing of that on the LP ...

- No filling of the room anywhere while this track is famous for it. = Here I can’t compete with Peters amazing sounding room

Thank you Joachim. But the room is hardly doing this. It is the speaker. I know, because I know how this all improved with the new speaker.

The CD produces more details, and the SPL of the LP is 6dB lower,

This does not tell much because the LP version completely depends on the recording level Mani applied.

Thanks ...
Peter

[PeterSt]

But for now, I don't understand the "No bass AT ALL" comments - there's loads here on both versions I've posted.

Hi Mani,

I assume that by now you know what difference I refer to (since you have the CD version). But to extend what I already (just) said about it :

It is the co-operation between left and right which makes it a room-filling bass. With the LP version the LF come dead from the middle and all the life is out of the bass already. This, while the bass (like recorded / produced) is so super special. Nothing of that is there on the LP (v1 and btw no time for v2 today I think).

If this is combined with hardly any stereo effect to begin with then all together the LP is completely flat sounding.
All is relative again, and first it needs a recording like this to express the vast difference.

Btw, this is not only an "audiophile recording" as you expressed it, but it is played to death at all audio shows. And for a reason of course.

Regards,
Peter

[manisandher]

Hey Peter, thanks for the CD track. In line with Joachim's response, here's what I think:

- No stereo Yes there is, if you sit centre as I always do.
- Strange highs A little more recessed and less decay, but not 'strange' to my ears
- No bass AT ALL (This was might thought before reading your post above.) This is one of the biggest differences for me. It's not the amount of bass, or the extension that I have a problem with on my needle drop, but rather the 'speed'. On the CD, the bass starts and stops so much more quickly. It provides the rhythm for the music. On the recording it is just too slow and 'woolly'.
- No filling of the room anywhere while this track is famous for it. No issues here in my room.

This in brief. But additionally in more detail :
No flagiolettes to be heard (always a property of the better system). (Again, before I read your post above.) Certainly, the CD has more micro detail than my recording. No disagreement here.
CD shows two (dubbed) voices - LP only one. The two voices are absolutely clear in the recording, but not to the extent of the CD. Probably due to the extra micro detail on the CD.
Dead sound. Bad, poor, nothing. I'm 50% with you on this.
Watch the very last stroke on the guitar and how LP shows "a sound" while CD shows all the strings from a guitar. I totally disagree with you. It's totally clear that this is the stroke of a guitar string. Clean your ears out!

And just like Joachim, I agree that the CD is better.

HOWEVER...

You might have noticed that in all my comments referred to 'my recording' and not 'the LP'. You see, I disagree with anyone who thinks that making an accurate digital recording of an LP (a 'needle drop') is trivial. I have many ADC machines here, and I can tell you that I cannot capture a 100% accurate needle drop with any of them. The PMII is totally transparent to my ears. I can compare the original LP with an AD/DA loop within the PMII and really there is no difference. However, this AD/DA loop does not require the PMII to be interfaced with anything externally. And it is here that the problem exists. In my experience capturing the AD stream on an external device 100% accurately is next to impossible. I'm not sure if it's AES/EBU, or firewire, or the PC that is at fault but a lot is lost in this process. And this is what you're hearing on my recording.

When I'm monitoring the LP during the recording process, the sound is stunning, and most of Peter's criticisms simply do not apply. When I have some time, I will compare playing the CD (on my NOS1a) vs. playing the LP, both through my monitoring system. I am pretty confident the difference will be next to nothing.

Meanwhile, I'm quite happy actually. I've found a track that I can use to make some really valid comparisons. Also, and more importantly, I know how far the recording is from the actual LP. And I can tell you that it's a similar difference between the recording and the CD. This has really motivated me to find a better way of capturing the AD stream from the PMII.

Peter, you will see!

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani,

I have many ADC machines here, and I can tell you that I cannot capture a 100% accurate needle drop with any of them. The PMII is totally transparent to my ears. I can compare the original LP with an AD/DA loop within the PMII and really there is no difference.

Aha ... But *that* now is a new data point. So I don't recall you ever said it like this ... which of course is not much related to my findings from listening directly to LP anyway.

Otherwise I am not sure how you are going to play anything from an LP which has been high passed (~30Hz) for LP (haha) while an original master didn't undergo that high passing.

Don't you have The Wall (PF) ? it would be a nice example to point out what just can't be there on LP. Just the first track (and I have the MSFL version).
In the end this is all (or only) about the ambient information (this goes to around 20Hz). Not much different from the "room filling" I talk about.
I don't want to be right, but of course I already am when talking about this aspect alone. Maybe not fair but do notice that this is no theory only. And therefore The Wall is a good example. By heart : EL&P I also have an example from, but at this moment I forgot which (could be Tarkus).

Cheers,
Peter

[manisandher]

Otherwise I am not sure how you are going to play anything from an LP which has been high passed (~30Hz) for LP (haha) while an original master didn't undergo that high passing.

Hey Peter, technically the LP is better than the CD!!! Look below. The compression on the CD is terrible. I wondered how the CD could sound so much louder than my needle drop, even though I was going reasonably high in level. And now I know. I think this might be a good example of people being impressed by artificial loudness!

And also, where's the drop off below 30Hz on the LP? There isn't any!

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hey Peter, technically the LP is better than the CD!!! Look below. The compression on the CD is terrible.

Yayayaya, that is how you look at it. But I look at it somewhat differently; This is not much compressed at all, however it is limited somewhat (say the 2dB of difference you see on the DR).

Otherwise don't get hung up too much on "compression" or whatever, because almost all CDs have that. But this is a very different property than detail etc.

FYI: The other day I spent a full day on measuring interlinks (up to 5MHz) to see whether I could find even the slightest difference between an in my view good performing one (Blaxius) and a totally dull situation like "wrongly modded" NOS1a plus different IC etc. ... Nothing of course. Also not with these kind of spectragrams.

On the bass side of things ... a bit of the same story. But if you want : what do you mean "no roll off" ?
[I am not saying that this is with real merit, but still you can think  it over]
Elsewhere I tried to explain what the high pass implies. This is NOT a steep roll off on the left side of 30Hz. Now I am confident you see a difference, and it is only (merit !) to determine where this difference comes from and how real it is. Still I already told somewhere (measuring from the speaker) that depending on the recording the LF goes all the way to DC. Your speaker does that too but with huge roll off beyond say 16Hz (but starts at 19Hz).

I can say it a 1000 times ... feel your woofers. Don't tell me you are afraid of it ? I mean, you never ever responded to this, while here too this is totally clear (yes, I did). Try to learn how DC feels (not a frequency but larger "blobs"). Your spectragraph shows it (FWIW).
Of course it is not important to feel something because it is about hearing/perceiving something. BUT from what you feel you can learn to hear or perceive it with as the next step how to improve or how to easily see (feel) that things got worse without readily recognition. If you do this with this track, you would never dare to say that there's no difference (with the proove of a plot which we all might not read easily for all there is to interpret).
What you can also do is switch on your DC metering in your NOS1a and look at it. The DC shows there too. Takes a bit of learning plus interpretation of the 3x or so per second update but you can see it (I don't know about this track and how the both versions will compare).
Yes, I know, you have to be with a nice drink in your basement for it, but alas. Haha.

So no, your plots to me don't show much (just because it can be 100 times worse).
Btw, your left headroom for the needle drop is around 6dB. So twice as soft for that reason alone. Nothing wrong with that (my opinion) but the explanation for your "wondering".

All put from a different angle :
So you agree that the CD sounds better. Or maybe not any more after seeing the plots ? . But what about your idea of the external device recording being detrimental then ? I mean, can you see it in the plots ?
That was your cigar. LOL

haha
Peter

[manisandher]

I can say it a 1000 times ... feel your woofers. Don't tell me you are afraid of it ? I mean, you never ever responded to this, while here too this is totally clear (yes, I did). Try to learn how DC feels (not a frequency but larger "blobs"). Your spectragraph shows it (FWIW).

OK, I'll try this.

But you can clearly see that the LP recording is identical in output to the CD from 10Hz upwards, i.e. there is no 30Hz high pass filter as you implied. And furthermore, the steep drop-off below 10Hz in the LP recording is a testament to how well-behaved my turntable/arm/cartridge are - little or no rumble.

If DC to 10Hz is really that important, then you have a point. Personally, I think it's the speed of the bass in the CD that makes it better, which of course is not shown by these plots.

So no, your plots to me don't show much (just because it can be 100 times worse).

Well, if you think 'limiting' on CDs is OK, then perhaps. But for me, it is totally, totally unnecessary - I mean, why do it?... Unless it's to have an artificial way of increasing micro details (as the RMS level is massively increased, and hence the low-level signals also).

So you agree that the CD sounds better.

Better than my recording, yes - there's more micro detail and the bass is tighter and faster.. Better than the LP, I'm not sure yet.

But what about your idea of the external device recording being detrimental then ? I mean, can you see it in the plots ?

No, of course not. Interfacing to an external device probably introduces a bunch of RF reflections and noise induced jitter, which 'deaden' the sound, but which won't show up on these plots.

Overall, the plots won't tell you how something sounds. But they're great for identifying 'cheating'. In the case of the CD, having to limit at -0.5dB full scale to make it sound 'good'. Just my opinion.

Mani.

[manisandher]

Try to learn how DC feels (not a frequency but larger "blobs").

And are you sure the DC should even be there in the first place? Is it really part of the signal, or an ADC artifact? Look below at the plot from a CD rip of a 10KHz test signal.

Mani.

[manisandher]

And are you sure the DC should even be there in the first place? Is it really part of the signal, or an ADC artifact?

Oh and look here at the plot of my v2 needle drop. (By the way, no need to take a listen to this - it sounds too similar to v1.)

Why the increased DC? Same LP, turntable, phono-preamp, and ADC. Just a different digital capture method (AES into a Tascam recorder, rather than a firewire interface and PC).

I'm sure plots of my older recordings made with my previous turntable would show plenty below 20Hz, and loads of DC. Would you prefer that?

 

Mani.