Best Vinyl Rig

[PeterSt]

[GerardA]

Peter, whats happening? Your laughing or crying?
Funny you spent so much time listening to vinyl!
I guess they did not use bnc-wires?

I'm not surprised about anything you say, but most vinylproblems are well known. I don't think you heard vinyl at its best because it is to complex to get everything right. How to find the best combination of turntable, arm, cartridge and pre-amp? For shure not in a shop or show. You are on your own and have to experiment, try, diy and listen. It took me 20 years to get where I am now with vinyl and still room for improvement.
Funny is that the bnc-cable made a bigger difference for my phono then for my dac....
If you are in the neigbourhood feel free to come and listen but be warned it still will be vinyl!

[PeterSt]

Haha, yes, I am really smiling Gerard ! Count on that this will happen !

Best regards,
Peter

[christoffe]

Hi,

the SQ of the previous (prior NOS1a times)  digitized  LP files changed with the „NOS1a replay“ considerable.

The last two days I made some tests with different sample rates using the  LP/CD from Dave Grusin (http://www.amazon.com/Migration-Dave-Grusin/dp/B0000001QL/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1415149201&sr=1-1&keywords=dave+grusin).

(for the cutting and transfering of the WAV- files I used AudioGate 3.02; declicking with iZotope3 – single band with a  low sensitivity at 2, and later converting WAV to Flac-files  with dbPoweramp latest rev.)

The best results/SQ  was achieved with a sample rate of 192Khz and a 24 bit depth.
There is a superb 3D room image (wall of sound) with a very smooth analogue sound without any harshness. The left/right separation is as usual.

--------------------------------
With the digital files the room image is a little bit broken/disrupted. The instruments seems to be played in different chambers (no wall of sound).
The kick drum, bass and cymbals are more pronounced  (maybe I have to adjust the subwoofers), and over a longer time the listening is a little bit exhausting compared to the LP files.

The SQ with both sources is amazing and it is difficult to decide what to prefer, and ...... the analogue source is on par, at least.

Joachim

EDIT I: this post is in contradiction to some previous statements, but the reason is that I increased the SPL at XXH from -31,5 to -27dB and the system (speakers) behaves different, and
second the system is now "in phase", which was not the case for at least a year. Nobody (who I know) was able to demonstrate with a sample when the system is "in phase" and when it is "out of phase". 
The track 3 on the ISOTEK CD is such a test now, and I'm quite sure, that a lot of our systems are "out of phase", and that is a tremendous difference.
see: http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=3039.0

[manisandher]

I finally got around to making another needle drop. I chose Talk Talk's 'I Believe in You' from their 'Spirit of Eden' album. I have the original LP and the original CD, both from the same master (the Audacity spectra look identical). The LP is one that I bought back in 1988 when I was a student and is not really in the best of shape, so please forgive all the surface noise. (My needle drop is 1.5 to 2.0 dB louder than the CD - yeah this was the good old days before pop music on CD was compressed to death!)

I'm interested in hearing anyone's thoughts. Are LPs really inferior to CDs as Peter claims?

Here's the link (hope it works OK):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/imypaxrbi6lznu3/AADvraa_Lyele8r4Wu0S43Uaa?dl=0

Mani.

[PeterSt]

OK, don't read when you are going to attempt yourself ...

Mani, if you want to make someone (like me) crazy, don't name your needle drop 16/44.1  I listened to that first and before half way I shut it down because I thought the rip was too poor to listen to any further.
Actually there you have your verdict.

*Because* I thought it was a bad rip I looked up my own and this is 6dB 3dB louder than that "CD" which thus must be your needle drop. your CD. This sounded very OK to me.

Next up was your real CD rip and that is ~3dB ~6dB softer than my own.

My own I found all right, while I found yours worse than the LP. However, I spoiled myself with my own because it played louder (but way louder because 6dB than your CD) while I thought it would be the similar level as your upcoming needle drop which I apparently already heard.

Right, now *you* are crazy because of this (text) and you caused it yourself.

Now I don't know where you got your CD from but AFAIK no Remaster exists - only a second layer SACD. That should be yours and it is not the very best. Maybe mine isn't either, but as said I spoiled myself and after 35 minutes of this I have swallowed enough A-B. Test was not fair because my mood went bad from the confusion.

Whether the LP is better than your CD ... maybe. Voices of the CD seemed squeezed (unevenly) and stereo picture is somewhat smaller. However if I shut something off because of all these ticks then it will never make it (not any more).
As said, my version did not disturb me at all but was played 6dB louder than your CD.
So I don't know ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

There's even more confusion because the "16/44.1" is softer than the other one. But for that to happen it needs to be played with HDCD decoding.
Yes, I went bananas of it.

Peter

[PeterSt]

Mani,

I can (or should !) also put it in another way :

At listening to the 16/44.1 I really thought nothing was wrong with it. Nice placebo ? perhaps. Until the ticks got worse and worse (2-3 minutes) - then I couldn't bear it.

At listening to the CD (with mine thus in between) I thought it wasn't the best. At that moment I already knew it was "the CD". So no placebo there.

But also :
I just tried to play the CD (mine) from track 01 - skipped that to 02 ... and there I quit the whole CD. Those "distorted" long-winding guitars are not much bearable in the first place. Ok, not here ...

Ok ?
Peter

[manisandher]

OK...

Firstly, you should play the 16/44.1 file (what else did you want me to call it if I'm also recording the track at 24/88.2 and 24/176.4???) without HDCD engaged in XX. I have taken all HDCD processing off in the PMII, but the HDCD flag remains. Play it without HDCD in XX.

Secondly, my CD rip is from the original CD released in 1988 - CDP7469772. I have no idea where yours came from.

I think this remains a good LP vs. CD comparison - the spectra are virtually identical (see below), so we can be pretty certain they're from the same master.

In any event, I think it clearly demonstrates that LP is not obviously inferior to CD... no?

Mani

[manisandher]

I just tried to play the CD (mine) from track 01 - skipped that to 02 ... and there I quit the whole CD. Those "distorted" long-winding guitars are not much bearable in the first place. Ok, not here ...

Yeah, finding something on LP and CD, taken from the same master, with little LP surface noise, and bearable to listen to is going to be difficult.

Thanks for trying Peter. I'd appreciate it if others did too and reported their findings.

For my part, from taking a few needle drops of some of my more pristine LPs, I'm pretty convinced that vinyl can sound very, very good. In fact, much better than I had anticipated. But quite frankly, I don't think vinyl is better than CD... but certainly not as bad as Peter made out in his opening post here.

Mani.

[christoffe]

I just tried to play the CD (mine) from track 01 - skipped that to 02 ... and there I quit the whole CD. Those "distorted" long-winding guitars are not much bearable in the first place. Ok, not here ...

But quite frankly, I don't think vinyl is better than CD... but certainly not as bad as Peter made out in his opening post here.

Mani.

Hi Mani,

you are right!!!!,**** but that depends on the frontend, such as turntable, tonearm and system!****

CD = 100% for SQ
LP 24/96 = 99,5% for SQ

Joachim

[manisandher]

For anyone who's interested, here's a needle drop from an 'audiophile LP'. I'd love to know what you think of the sound quality.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ob7w4dkvaeqzvr/Chris%20Jones%20-%20No%20Sanctuary%20Here.wav?dl=0

Edit: please use this version instead:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1x1u0d3ozvrkpci/Chris%20Jones%20-%20No%20Sanctuary%20Here%20v2.wav?dl=0

Make certain HDCD decoding is switched off in XX.

Mani.

[christoffe]

For anyone who's interested, here's a needle drop from an 'audiophile LP'. I'd love to know what you think of the sound quality.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ob7w4dkvaeqzvr/Chris%20Jones%20-%20No%20Sanctuary%20Here.wav?dl=0

Make certain HDCD decoding is switched off in XX.

Mani.

Hey Mani,

unbelievable piece of music!!! There is a fantastic 3D image, and every instrumentalist is to localize in the ROOM. Perfect

Joachim

[PeterSt]

unbelievable piece of music!!! There is a fantastic 3D image, and every instrumentalist is to localize in the ROOM. Perfect

Oh, is that so ...

[PeterSt]

Hey Mani, I love you. But I am sure that by now you will believe that. Ok, about the below text I mean ...

TOTALLY WORTHLESS
And for ALL the aspects I referred to before.

One thing : with my personal previous "testing" I didn't have my NOS1a right with the impedance stuff. But, at the time I did not know that yet. And honestly, day before yesterday I played the Talk Talk again from CD and could hear I had to do the test again. Nothing came from that for lack-of-time reasons yet, but now this new one ...

Very quickly (because not much time now) and with the notice that everybody over here directed it to the trashbin (because we know the track very well) :

- No stereo (see ?);
- Strange highs (see ?)
- No bass AT ALL (see ?)
- No filling of the room anywhere while this track is famous for it.

This in brief. But additionally in more detail :
No flagiolettes to be heard (always a property of the better system).
CD shows two (dubbed) voices - LP only one.
Dead sound. Bad, poor, nothing.
Watch the very last stroke on the guitar and how LP shows "a sound" while CD shows all the strings from a guitar.

For Joachim, try the CD. I mean I wasn't heading to debunk your nice report, but try the CD.
Of course I *am* debunking Mani's claim, and not a little explicitly. But Mani, as said, you will know yourself by now.
And if not, then there's something to sort out at your side. Similar to mine with the Talk Talk experiment (or that just isn't a good example - I can't tell; but I can do that one again of course).

Hey, this shouldn't come across as bashing; merely as self-defence. Hahaha.

Best regards and feel free to counter attack my "statements" - I can point out a 100 things wrong in this,
Peter