Cables with BNC Connectors/Adapters Are Generating A Superoir SQ

[Scroobius]

Juan

A very coarse texturing of the sound, characterized by a sharp-edged, spiky roughness.

Yes that's it!! but subtle

Peter - I guess its always possible that I could have done something wrong but I really don't know what. It is a pretty simple mod really. Great care was taken with crimping etc.

Just out of interested did you find that changing the output impedance of NOS1a made any significant difference? compared with the coax etc?

Maybe a trip to see Mani is in order - we can make comparisons!!

Paul

[CoenP]

Hi,
 

Hi Brian, thanks for the link. I still have some doubts because some days ago I put a post asking about the Neutrik adapters and transformers and it is not clear if they will work, the problem is that the RCA connector has an impedance of 75 Ohm, same as the coaxial cable, so with an adapter is ok, but the XLR connector is 110 Ohm and I´m not sure if it needs an adapter or a impedance transformer.

Impedance transformer: http://www.neutrik.com/en/accessories/aes-ebu-impedance-transformers/

Adapter: http://www.neutrik.com/en/accessories/circular-adapters/na2fbnc

I appreciate some help on this regard because I´d really would like to test the BNC cable.

These are AES/EBU to SPDIF (75 ohm) impedance transformers naturally intended for the digital RF signal and as such completely unsuitable for audio frequencies. AF transformers are on their turn quite unusefull for RF and proper RF termination for that matter.

You could to the one or two adapter trick at the end of the BNC cable, but it is spanning the horse behind the carriage as we say here. The whole idea of transmitting a signal over two wires in opposite polarity is to minimise the interference with outside magnetic fields (that will be common to both signals). If you use only one conductor of the pair this is all lost. Anyway if you only have a balanced input on the amp there's no other way.
The only way to make the BNC cable work as intended (no rf reflections) in this case you will have to terminate the line with its rated impedance before or in the adapterplug. The plugs and circuitry thereafter have never been designed for rf so this is a lost cause anyway (if it matters at all).

Regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

Hey Paul,

Peter - I guess its always possible that I could have done something wrong but I really don't know what. It is a pretty simple mod really. Great care was taken with crimping etc.

Regarding the latter - I can imagine. But I also can imagine that there's a 90% chance it wasn't done right. And what you get from that is what someone reported before : like a half-loose connector. Call it "shrill" sound. But too hard to debug of course.

Just out of interested did you find that changing the output impedance of NOS1a made any significant difference? compared with the coax etc?

I can't tell; I could say "yes, huge difference" but do notice that I did all together. Thus, change amp's terminals, change NOS1a's terminals and change NOS1a output impedance.
This, compared to usual output impedance with RCA terminals at both ends plus BNC to RCA adapters. So what to say ... I can't really tell.

It is a pretty simple mod really.

That is what you think which right away is the danger. If that where so I would have answered your email about this right away, and when I did try answer it a week later I still did not send it because all too difficult. Then I saw you did it yourself and now ... well, sorry !

Anyway I am pretty sure that you didn't remove the internal XLR wiring and even if you did it still ain't right. But I did for myself and Mani has that the same.

And yet again I "need" to point out that you have these Bybees in, BUT, Mani has those too. Thus anyway, where you yourself are the first to "admit" that they make a huge difference, what to do next ? I keep on saying : such tweaks are not allowed in the first place. And with this as a base we both don't know what the combination will do. However, this said, disregard it for now (but keep it in mind) because Mani has them just the same.

What I have been thinking of merely is this :
There will be no way for you to listen off-axis. So you know I told you not to listen on-axis, but *I* know this is moot because of your speaker distance combined with your listening distance which is too far. The only escape would be to listen more near by and then sufficient toeing out will do it (OK, what I envision needed). Now *here*'s a difference with Mani, because remember the reason for the height of the MKII's ... You just are not able to listen on-axis, a normal lazy seat assumed.

Otherwise :
What you should notice from the application as a whole (I mean well executed) is that very clear loud bells are all over while non of them existed before. Yesterday I again noticed it and thought to write this to you as an "if that does not happen something clearly is amiss". I can not tell if you notice(d) this (you can though), but this is a sort of prerequisite to detect that not something else is wrong. When you do notice this (all over, though a bit depending on whether the bells are played in the first place - but try general Vangelis) *and* are hurt by the mere harsh highs etc., then I'd say thay you capture too much of the enormously more highs output (this really is the marker point). So on-axis listening implies over 6dB more of the highest frequencies. Keep this in mind. This could be nice in itself, but now it is good to know that on-axis listening also implies a sharp cancelling dip which could be annoying (this is at ~17KHz but can imply on-off behaviour (combing) which acoustically leaks back into the lower regions (sort of IMD(istortion)).

Difficult ...
Peter

[manisandher]

And yet again I "need" to point out that you have these Bybees in, BUT, Mani has those too. Thus anyway, where you yourself are the first to "admit" that they make a huge difference, what to do next ? I keep on saying : such tweaks are not allowed in the first place.

I do, but maybe not for much longer. I don't like what they've done to the sound. I think they are compressing it and making it grayer.

My LF Bybees have been in for a while now. My MF and HF Bybees only for a couple of weeks. I remember Paul saying that they take quite a while to burn-in, so I'll keep them in for longer and see what happens. But at some point I will definitely take them all out (the LF will be a PITA) to see what affect they've been having.

Mani.

[manisandher]

Maybe a trip to see Mani is in order - we can make comparisons!!

Paul, you're welcome of course. (We can liaise via PM to sort this out.)

Cheers, Mani.

[Scroobius]

Impatience is NOT a virtue I should have waited!!! Ah well.

But I also can imagine that there's a 90% chance it wasn't done right. And what you get from that is what someone reported before : like a half-loose connector. Call it "shrill" sound.

I followed the manufacturers crimping notes very carefully - if I crimp exactly to their recommendations shouldn't it be OK? or is there more to be considered?

I am pretty sure that you didn't remove the internal XLR wiring and even if you did it still ain't right

whoops  I shoulda realised it is parallel with the RCA wiring. Duuurgh.

listen more near by and then sufficient toeing out will do it

I have toed the speakers out and in fact just now they are not toed in at all. They sound better - more even. I can easily move closer to the speakers maybe for critical listening but they sound just great listening from "too far away".

And if the Bybees have to come out well so be it!! But first I have to get the rest of it right 

Paul

[PeterSt]

Mani, Paul,

Because of possible language problems or the expectations from "how I am" I need to emphasize : I do not know how the Bybees work out. So I am NOT saying that they will be for the worse (so forget a bit about my "not allowed" now please). What I do say though that it is so sad that we now can not compare from the distance and reason out what could be going on. So all I can really say is that they are prone to "do" something which looks like illegal to me, or otherwise someone must tell how they exactly work.

I say it again, those sugar cubes ... just mechanical stuff ... super gag. But just that. I could not stand them for that reason and no normal judgement was possible any more for me. That is how I took them out, and not all that much for bad sound (OK, I got crazy of them but never mind that which could be personal). They just took me out of control.
Bybees ?

Peter


PS: Paul, you still have them (my sugar cubes). Put them under your NOS1a and tell about your judgement TODAY.
Why ? all is relative. The last time (year ago ?) you told that you forgot about them and that they were still under your NOS1. Whether so or not, change. The way you will be telling about them will tell me (or us) something and I am pretty confident that you will not have the same judgement as before. I don't know where the eye-opener will be, but I guess there will be one.

[PeterSt]

OK Paul.
Still this one :

I followed the manufacturers crimping notes very carefully - if I crimp exactly to their recommendations shouldn't it be OK? or is there more to be considered?

I find this hard to believe and this is where I got stuck in my email. *If* you really (really !) did that, you also spent 300+ euros on the tools needed.

I know, we (almost) all can make connectors on cables. I myself have done thousands (networking stuff). Still, now I wanted to do it 100% right and *I* got quite crazy of it. Of course this does not tell anything about you(r capalities on this) but let's say that when you really want to make the connector at 75 Ohm you really must work on the 1/10th of a mm and not doing so destroys the "dielectricum" never mind you don't see anything of that while working on the cable and and connector. Say I am "precise".

See below picture;
This was after 3 hours of practicing the day before and that in itself was after I made the ones for myself. What the picture shows is "Mani's cables" because with each "cut" I was not satisfied (so you can count them). I think that was 2.5 hours or so after the other 3 the day before and a few more for my own, earlier. And remember what I told : Mani's seem to sound better which could be because of their length but I *also* know how I did my own. And this was not for the better I can tell you. Point out what ? then I should have made pictures of all the failures.
But please, me struggeling tells nothing. Only that I did and at least try very hard to comply to all what's to comply to.

Peter

Edit, PS:
I see the picture now myself again. As you can see almost all looks the same (for cut length etc.), so it is not really about that rough level. It is about that indeed 1/10th of a millimeter and how the NOT correct tools make you struggle. I forgot my now by I spent 160 or so on them. This, wile it needs the 300+ an of course I refused (still do). So with the proper tools it is easy (I reckon) but I already thought I bought the right tools; so that is something else to consider.

[PeterSt]

I have toed the speakers out and in fact just now they are not toed in at all.

This is not about being "not toed in at all" as such. It is about the angle; and no way you can avoid the on-axis beaming at the speaker distance plus 6 meters listening distance (as I recall). You only get there when you toe them OUT and this wont work either.
Apparently this is a difficult subject.

A very rough rule (not to follow precisely but to give you the idea) :
Look in the horn and you will see the driver (say light grey). Now be in the listening seat and from each of the horns you are not allowed to see more than half of the driver.
So tell me what you see ...

[manisandher]

See below picture;
This was after 3 hours of practicing the day before and that in itself was after I made the ones for myself. What the picture shows is "Mani's cables" because with each "cut" I was not satisfied (so you can count them). I think that was 2.5 hours or so after the other 3 the day before and a few more for my own, earlier.

Hey Peter, what can I say? Thanks so much for insisting on getting it right before sending my Blaxius cables out to me. Definitely a beer or two on me the next time we meet up, OK?

Cheers, Mani.

[PeterSt]

I don't think I need to wait any longer with reporting with what I hear today.
But first the sequence of happenings/changes, so people can follow; topics with main numbers and sub letters were applied/active at the same time (like 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d).

1a. NOS1.
1b. My previous speakers and amps.
1c. 75 Ohm coax Interlinks with Neutrik connectors. Length 1m80.
1d. Audio PC connected to mains earth.

2. Orelino Speakers + amplifiers.

3a. Orelo MKII speakers + new amplifiers.
3b. 75 Ohm coax Interlinks with Neutrik connectors. Length ~4m.

4a. NOS1a prototype (all components new).
4b. XXHighEnd Custom Filter.

5. NOS1a production version (used DAC board from my original 4 year broken in NOS1).

6. Bass tweaks for people who think they like more bass.

7. BNC Interlinks + RCA adapters. Length = 3m.

8. Disconnected Audio PC from mains earth.

9a. Back to native ("original") Orelo MKII DSP measured settings.
9b. Back to Arc Prediction.

BINGO

If you follow the sequence, you can see how things can creap in for the worse. Or better, how the one challenges for the other while actually we should always "reset" back to base.

Nice story eh ? If I now only listen to myself for once ...

10. Adjust all impedances and use Blaxius.
... play a few weeks ...
11. Try Custom Filter.

B....

haha

Oh help; sometimes I don't know anymore what ever *can* be next. But now this;
From the very first note I heard a crazy wide sound stage that being done by the higher frequencies. For Joachim : I didn't try it, but the Seagull will fly as never before.

For Mani : If you think you lack a bit of dynamics, then the proper filter selection could be the culprit. But then I don't know whether you followed my "nice advice" to use Arc Prediction again (see quote).

I love this for other reasons : the trust that I actually was on the right track with the Custom Filter stuff (say I was quite sad because it seemed a dead end while it has so much (theoretical) potential).

So for the few with the cable, just for fun try the difference between the two (Arc Prediction and Custom). You won't know what you will be hearing, SO huge is the difference. There was difference alright but not like this.

From all what I played yesterday there's now this actually strange "super snap" of which I thought at first that it had to be the albums I played. A bit difficult to interpret in the midst of that also "Seagull" like changes. Say hard to determine where your interest/focus has to go because ALL changed. But then I heard a first track with a quite alone playing snare drum and now suddenly all came together for that instrument. Say that with Arc Prediction it sounded OK all over, but you can feel that you think it's okay because "luckily" the dynamics are not too high. So, add a bit of that and it could be too lean and nastyness creaps in. Now ? oh boy, so much highs are added *again* while totally nothing is nasty that I could find from these first 4 hours.

Now I wonder how Mani and Paul were using their cable. So of course the above text will come across a bit strange if the Custom Filter was used already.

Peter

[manisandher]

For Mani : If you think you lack a bit of dynamics, then the proper filter selection could be the culprit. But then I don't know whether you followed my "nice advice" to use Arc Prediction again (see quote).

Hey Peter, yes I've been using Arc Prediction for the last 4-6 weeks. But not really because of your advice - I came to this conclusion on my own beforehand. I'm not at home right now but will try Custom over the weekend.

Mani.

[Scroobius]

Now I wonder how Mani and Paul were using their cable

So Mani is using AP and so indeed am I. As Mani mentioned in a previous post I was at his place on Monday. Unfortunately we were not able to try out my (attempt at) B75 cables or my other RCA interconnects which I had hoped to. That was because Mani has his "B75 NOS1a" in the cellar and it really was not reasonably possible to move it all upstairs.

Anyway we had an extensive listen to Mani's B75 set up as I wanted to assess whether it would be worth me pursuing B75 for my system. My impressions at the end of the listening session were that it would not be worth the effort. I just do not hear any difference compared with my RCA's. But of course it is not a rigorous test at all - but it does seem to me that if there was such a big difference I would have heard it.

So when I returned home I put the RCA sockets back in the Orelino's and NOS1a and returned to using my previous interconnects. I sat back and listened and I just cannot put into words just how good my system sounds now. It is crazy but I just do not remember it sounding this good before. There is nothing I can think of that I have done that would have improved the sound - I just removed the BNC sockets and put the RCA's back in.

Oh there is just one thing I had a short dalliance with Blackgates in the output board regulators etc. - and it was short lived because the Silmic's sound much much better. So the Silmics are back in and they will be staying. I have to say the BG's sounded better before in my old system but anyway I am not going to stray from the "true path" again.

Last night I sat listening to some excellently recorded Jazz. I can still hear the sound of the double bass it was just amazing. Piano well it just sounded real. Imaging is superb with proper 3D behind the speakers effects and it stretches outside the width of the speakers. But all of that is probably because I fire the Orelino's straight down the room now and for sure there are some reflections now that there were not before. But hey who cares it sounds amazing.

So B75's are on the back burner for me now - the sound quality I am getting is just sublime. I have to say (and Mani will not mind me saying this because he has heard my system) that the sound quality in my room is substantially better than Mani gets. I played some albums with deep bass at Mani's and at mine. I have to say the bass in my room is much better. I would have to say that the sound I get is better through the whole frequency range, more dynamic and smoother.

It has to be the room but the point is that I do not see B75 making any substantial difference (or would it? the thought of the sound being better than it is now is just crazy!). Anyway after all that I shall indeed play with the other filter tonight. It did not work for me last time but that was before Orelino's.

Cheers

Paul

 

[PeterSt]

Anyway after all that I shall indeed play with the other filter tonight.

Well Paul, that would be all the worlds upside down. Of course you can try it, if you only heard me say that what *I* perceive is 100% related to the "Blaxius" and proper impedance.

To keep track of all is not easy anyway, like I testify in my previous post about myself ...

Regards,
Peter

[CoenP]

It is crazy but I just do not remember it sounding this good before. There is nothing I can think of that I have done that would have improved the sound - I just removed the BNC sockets and put the RCA's back in.

The effect of the BNC cable notwithstanding, I had kind of the same experience. That is SQ seems to improve over time, almost suddenly. I did not change anything to my system, but I am sure it sounded like never-heard-before good on my system yesterday night.

regards, Coen