In anticipation of my "nearly" new Orelino Speakers

[PeterSt]

The point is that such components leaks noise back into the mains circuit.

Same principle as how we could (or used to) protect our audio from a CD player's spitting back because of perceived "HF digital noise".
Not that - back at the time - I ever thought of putting such devices in series with my coffee machine ...

[Scroobius]

With the time of Orelino delivery imminent here are my brief impressions on sound quality I heard first at Mani's and then Peter's.

Horn Sound In both cases the familiar characteristic horn sound was clearly evident. I don't really know how to describe it so I won't all I can say is that with all horns I have listened to previously it was not something I could live with. However Orelxxx is clearly the best horn implementation I have heard - and after a very short adjustment period I forgot about it - so no problems because of the other virtues (see below).

Bass Bass was very light at Mani's and was my biggest concern. Mani improved it substantially after Nick and I left as posted by Mani. However, at Peter's I also found the bass to be light. Certainly that was the biggest single worry because for me good quality and quantity of bass it totally essential to enjoy music. So why did I go for the Orelino's anyway? simple really the measurements show that the bass output of the Orelino's was "correct" but also it is very configurable. My feeling was that if I did not like it then I would fix it. However, from recent posts it seems that Peter may have fixed it anyway.

Rough a Bit Edgy I have to say I found particularly with Peter's system there was a tad rough presentation in the higher frequencies. My strong feeling is that a slick slipstreamed flow of electrons that have been stripped of noise (more to follow when I have my new speakers) before they enter the drivers is totally essential especially with a high sensitivity horn. Also I had misgivings about Peter's use of coax for line level inputs to the MkII's. That is something I have tried before and did not work for me at all (not at all!!). I am making tried and tested interconnects that I have used on many occasions and I know to be of impeccable performance. Notwithstanding this I quickly jump to Peters defence in that he has to use "things" of known and measurable performance so hi fi "cooking" is not and cannot be on Peter's agenda.

Imaging compared with what I normally hear imaging was not particularly good. We played an album I know very well and is IMHO very well recorded but it sounded recessed and very poor. This was almost certainly due to that fact that Peter's MkII's are very far apart - out of necessity as Peter and Ciska like to look out of their window!!. But anyway that is a minor point. I have no choice in my room they will be much closer together.

High Frequency Precision I nearly forgot to mention one concern I still have is the precision of high frequencies via the horn. It still sounds to me that the those precise high frequency sounds are a little diffuse in a horn. Certainly compared with the ribbon driver I currently use. Could it be a feature of a compression chamber. Not sure but I am hopeful that this will not be a problem. Or maybe horns show more detail I just dunnow. We will see.

So what did I like?

Voice singing voice was simply sensational easily and by a long way the best I have heard. Stripped of harmonic distortion (I assume) human voice sounded knock out to my ears.

Bass Speed & Quality again simply knock out the best I have heard anywhere. And with the correct weight in the bass (missing at the time I have to say) something special.



I think that about covers it. All in all I felt that there was sufficient in what I heard to make a decision and that any short falls in my expectations could be overcome by tweaking and setting up at home.

[christoffe]

Bass Bass was very light at Mani's and was my biggest concern. Mani improved it substantially after Nick and I left as posted by Mani. However, at Peter's I also found the bass to be light. Certainly that was the biggest single worry because for me good quality and quantity of bass it totally essential to enjoy music. So why did I go for the Orelino's anyway? simple really the measurements show that the bass output of the Orelino's was "correct" but also it is very configurable.

In all live concerts (>50) , except one at a  "Return To Forever" performance (with a very high volume of appr. > 100dBA) , I had problems to hear the bass very clear. Other instruments, trumpets, saxes, guitars, cymbals were covering (overlapping) the bass.

IMO we are overestimating the proportion (weight) of a bass in most of the songs.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Joachim posted a PDF in his last post, but he did not mention it and I didn't see it at first. That's why here the contents :
(quite interesting)

[PeterSt]

IMO we are overestimating the proportion (weight) of a bass in most of the songs.

I am staring at this for 15 minutes; something tells me that I can have a response with some sense, but it won't slip into my mind.
OK, it must go by means of an example :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUzknDfC_eQ

This is Ray Brown and Laurindo Almeida. If this works as it works here, you won't be able to hold your tears. So, careful.

This is of course with my poorly tuned "light weight" bass.
Some background as how I perceive this : some shy girl without experience singing to the big guy who also isn't the very best (for steadyness on his bow).

When you tune this for real life loudness to the guitar (right speaker - just saying), the double bass (from left, haha), at the 3 minute point the bass is so "heavy" by means of the resin on the bow - and it is so slowly stroke, that the whole room vibrates just on the bouncing of the bow over the string. On estimate this is ~100dBSPL.

First thing : no single way that I see this working from any smallish woofer - also not 2 or 3 of them. No-way. It needs the "volume" and without that, if anything is going to shake it is your head thinking about money for new woofers.

When I listen to this at this level, I really see that Mr Brown in my room and envision that the level is real. The shaking of the room will also be real.
What seems unreal is how it is done. I mean, this hardly can be the bass's cabinet only and it first needs a room where the lot is in (so the room makes the sound). This shows somewhat by the guitar which is on the heavy side (I think).

Of course I still can't bring across what really happens when done well, but at least it is the most crazy badd ass example that I know of, and it is from an acoustic bass.
Matter of recording ... But 100% sure also a matter of how the performer is able to let bounce the bow like this in steady frequency (or distance if you like) because without that nothing much more happens than what we are used to.
Still to remember : no way any "normal" speaker will show a thing of this. It's plane brute force what is in order.

What I also can not explain to you is how in the world it is possible that this brute force low frequency on/off bouncing is able to remain separated without first filling the room with warbles. It just doesn't.

While *this* is about the recording, for an electric bass player it normally will be about the speaker he uses. Now things turn around (but actually come down to the same (subject)), now his speaker needs to be able to show this brute force with good resolution, and *that* does not happen. This in itself will be related to the level the whole band plays, and while the lead guitar and drums just play at "some" level which is capable for speakers, no bass can do that without super distortion. And there we go. It will shake the room, but that is from reverberation (longitudinal standing waves) and this is something else.

30 minutes further I am still not sure what to really say about this, except for that it varies very very much with the recording and whether we are able to run into gems like this.
Is it a gem ?
Please give it a try. And if you can't shake your room with it, then what ?
Then all is moot again, because we again can not communicate over it. Bad luck.

But also, and now it may get interesting, when this does not work out as it does over here, the whole idea of the song is lost. There still will be a shy girl, but no bad ass Ray Brown. Both play as poor and you could be disturbed by that. So now suddenly - and finally - a sheer technical merit will be capable of not holding your tears.

In the very end Joachim will be correct. Such things will not show easily from recordings because a bass is too hard to capture to begin with (can't be done well with close micing, and from the distance all gets "warbled"). So to some extend it indeed has to be about our expectations. If you'd hear this track in this place, you'd be cured forever.

Try it. It's worth while to begin with.
(I don't know the original by heart and whether that's (still) obtainable, but otherwise it's on the "Bass Power" album you see below.

Peter

[AlainGr]

FYI... Cannot play, but it identifies the artists and the music...

http://www.allmusic.com/album/audios-audiophile-vol-2-bass-power-mw0000718972

Alain

[christoffe]

IMO we are overestimating the proportion (weight) of a bass in most of the songs.

I am staring at this for 15 minutes; something tells me that I can have a response with some sense, but it won't slip into my mind.
OK, it must go by means of an example :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUzknDfC_eQ

This is Ray Brown and Laurindo Almeida. If this works as it works here, you won't be able to hold your tears. So, careful.

This is of course with my poorly tuned "light weight" bass.
Some background as how I perceive this : some shy girl without experience singing to the big guy who also isn't the very best (for steadyness on his bow).

When you tune this for real life loudness to the guitar (right speaker - just saying), the double bass (from left, haha), at the 3 minute point the bass is so "heavy" by means of the resin on the bow - and it is so slowly stroke, that the whole room vibrates just on the bouncing of the bow over the string. On estimate this is ~100dBSPL.

Hi Peter,

this recording is a good sample for arguments.

The acoustic bass generates a SPL between 70 and 94dB (see the table above), and in real life the SPL in the recording studio was not higher than appr. 90dB.

At the Ron Carter concert in Helsinki he was playing his bass with a bow string too, and we hear the resin sound and the very deep notes. The sound was pleasing without any distortions.

My assumption is, that the SPL of our "music listening" is too high.

At present I'm playing a bass recording from Brian Bromberg

http://www.amazon.com/Wood-Brian-Bromberg/dp/B000FQJPBO/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1409568335&sr=1-3&keywords=brian+bromberg

for my ears very loud, and the SPL at my listening place is around 65dBA (SPL level for a longer relaxing listening period), and the bass replay is perfect.

Joachim

Edit: typical SPL's in concert halls are 80 - 85dBA

[Scroobius]

while you there (in the UK)  have stupid fuses in the mains cords ? Shouldn't you remove/shortcut those ?

Hey Peter - By coincidence I found out today that there are plans to change the way houses in the UK are wired. It seems that the IEE are at last considering getting rid of the mains ring approach and wiring houses like they do in (most) of the rest of Europe. The ring main is the reason plugs have fuses here in the UK they are required if there is a fault condition that could arise if the ring is broken. Maybe our hifi enthusiast children will end up with no plugs on their hi fi!!

Paul

[Scroobius]

Some very big boxes just arrived!!!!

[AlainGr]

Food for the ears You must be excited !!!! I would be

[manisandher]

Congratulations! But having gone through all of this myself, I have to say I don't envy you.

Enjoy setting up!

Mani.

[christoffe]

Congratulation,

as Mani wrote, but with strong assistants, some special refreshments and in anticipation of the final result it will be a piece of cake.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Paul,

We know how keen you are in breaking open floors. But don't tell us that you are cementing back-in that door ?

Peter

[AlainGr]

By looking at these boxes, I imagine Santa trying to pass them through the chimney... 

[Scroobius]

It took me from 830am until 6pm to get the speakers unpacked in and working!  OK much of that was down to making the wiring neat and tidy but also I kept getting calls from work. They obviously did not realise the importance of this!!  Added to that I have a lump on my head after banging it on the edge of a table, two strained fingers from lifting my old speakers out and a wood splint in a finger from the Orelino packing cases. Other than that all went well.

And how does it sound? you will have to wait until later when I have more time write a post 

Cheers

Paul