Mani's Orelo MkII speakers

[PeterSt]

My experience is that in smaller monitors or speakers with small woofers, the bass has been manipulated with a hump in the 80-200 range, that creates the artifactual bass perception.

VJ, I don't know; I just never investigated it. But if so it has to be done acoustically (unless it is an active speaker with DSP of course) and why not - in order to give a perceived boost.

I guess a Peter can comment on manipulating low freq with DSP on Oreleo?!

Not really much to comment other than that all what happens is to make it as flat as possible (the +/- 0.5dB up to 19Hz).
If one would look into it he can easily see how linear the "correction" actually is (bell shape) *IF* he is able to interpret the differentitation between what the drivers + wave guide need to sustain the flatness (so compensate for mechanical roll off of the former) on one side and how the XOver is to be blended in on the other (right side so to speak).
The latter also contains corrections needed for the mid to some extend. So where the mid response may show a dip for its reponse at its end (with the notice that this includes the horn of course) the can nicely be filled out (flattened) by means of the bass dsp as long as it is in the formal XOver area.
Do notice that the net result of it all can only be seen when the whole is measured my microphone and is graphed from there.
Hint FWIW : The electrical output of the bass amplifier(s) looks 100% the same as the graphed output of the DSP. The acoustical result is that +/- 0.5dB flat line.
And a notice : The most corrections you will find at the complete left end of the spectrum which *attenuates* (notches) at a most detailed level. This is to sustain the good "distortion level" hence that no too high output emerges at 18, 17, 16 etc. Hz in relation to the (88dBSPL) the 19Hz was tuned with. Would this not have been done then 16Hz etc. would also output at almost the same 88dBPL with too high excursion thus distortion.

And might you want to know : totally nothing is incorporated from the room (read : my room) which is not an easy task to begin with.

All 'n all nothing is "humped" anywhere, but of course do not forget the F-M curves (graduate attenuation patterns starting at 600Hz upwards plus ~4KHz additional attenuation and same from of 6200Hz or so (graduate boost upwards)).

Hopefully this answers all questions in one go, because I know what you are looking at.
Peter

[pedal]

Just for my curiosity:

Regarding the Orelo MkII speakers, how is the DSP in the bass working? Are the active amplifiers "class D" or something?

[PeterSt]

No, just our normal own apmplifiers.

[manisandher]

Hey, it's been quiet around here for a while. So I thought I'd give an update on my interconnects.

I can't even remember in which thread I mentioned that I'd be comparing a bunch of ICs, having been told by Peter that my 10m ICs just wouldn't 'work' seeing as the XLR inputs of the Orelos are not balanced. Well, my comparison hasn't really panned out the way I was hoping. Before I left for a business trip last week, I asked for a pair of 'expensive' 2m RCA ICs to be given to me on loan to try out. Well they haven't arrived (not sure they ever will) and because my listening room was in such a mess (from trying the USB cable comparisons), I decided to just put the PC back in the basement, and the NOS1a in the basement 'studio' for now.

What can I say? The sound is great with the 10m ICs I bought through Juan. I mean, really, really great. If I was being really critical, I'd say there might be a very slight loss in dynamics compared to the 2m RCA ICs I was using before, but quite frankly any such loss (if indeed it is really there at all) is nothing compared to the differences between various recordings. And furthermore, there seems to be no attenuation of the HF at all (that I can hear, at least).

I'm not sure this will be a permanent set up. At some point, I think I need to try the PC in the basement and the NOS1a in the main room, with a 5m USB cable between them and 2m ICs to the Orelos. But this will require pulling up some floorboards again, something that I thought I'd never need to do again. Not a big deal, but crawling under the floors of a 130-year-old house isn't my idea of fun.

So for now, I'll continue using the 10m XLR ICs. They really shouldn't sound this good considering the non-balanced nature of the setup. But they do, and that's totally fine by me.

Mani.

[juanpmar]

Hey, it's been quiet around here for a while. So I thought I'd give an update on my interconnects...

...What can I say? The sound is great with the 10m ICs I bought through Juan. I mean, really, really great. If I was being really critical, I'd say there might be a very slight loss in dynamics compared to the 2m RCA ICs I was using before, but quite frankly any such loss (if indeed it is really there at all) is nothing compared to the differences between various recordings. And furthermore, there seems to be no attenuation of the HF at all (that I can hear, at least).

So for now, I'll continue using the 10m XLR ICs. They really shouldn't sound this good considering the non-balanced nature of the setup. But they do, and that's totally fine by me.

Mani.

Hi Mani,

I´m glad that you get such a good sound in your Orelo with the 47pF cable. Let me say that we also make this cable but with RCA/RCA, it has the same structure than the XLR/XLR but without the ground wire. Kjell got one of this 47pF RCA cables so he could tell us how it compares with the XLR he also has and if he finds any difference. (Kjell, we know you're away from home and we are as anxious as you to see how your new Orelo sounds after the break-in time  )

Btw, we are making also a power cord that I think could be of interest for systems with auto amplified speakers like the Orelo (of course also for other systems). It has only one plug to the wall and up to four IEC connectors with all the connections in star (all components are powered and grounded from a single common point). This cable lets connect, in practice, all the components directly to the wall in one shot while preserving a path 100% shielded.
The power distributors or power bars are useful for their flexibility, but typically have two problems, unnecessarily multiply contacts (IEC inlet, inside wiring, connection sockets, new connectors on cables associated input and output, etc.), and often wiring are not in star, so the ground potential is not the same between the connections, resulting in ground noise that generally affect more or less the sound. This cable avoids these problems.

Just a humble contribution to get everything a bit better. If anyone is interested please PM as I have no website. It is pure craftsmanship at very affordable price 

Kind regards,
Juan

[KnB]

Juan, will let you know if I can hear any improvement with the 2 meter rca over the 5 meter xlr.

I am planning to get new power cords with tailored length, so check your mailbox

[juanpmar]

Thanks Kjell, I PM you

Juan

[manisandher]

I finally got around to measuring the response of the Orelos in my room and... oh boy!

Pic 1

This shows the response from 30Hz to 70Hz with the mic placed just in front of the speaker vs. at the listening position. There's simply a MASSIVE dip between 65-35Hz at the listening position. Each vertical is 5dB, so the dip is up to -25dB! It's no wonder that I've had an issue with the low end since the day I set the Orelos up. Increasing the overall bass gain seemed to help, but is was obviously totally screwing up the overall LF/MF/HF balance.

Interestingly, with the mic placed close to the speaker, the response is  very flat - a testament to how well the speakers have been set up by Peter in the first place.

Pic 2

Peter and I worked together over the weekend to achieve this response... at the listening position!!! I set up a measurement system in the room and sent Peter the first pic via email. He created a new filter for me that I could load into the speaker's bass DSP and sent it back to me via email. We iterated quite a few times until we achieved this response.

Sound Quality

Well let's just say that this is the best low end I've ever heard. Period. Nothing that I've heard to date comes close to this. Sorry Paul, the low end from your Orelinos is good, but not this good

[I haven't been to Peter's place since he's had his Orelos, but can only assume that his low end is on par with mine, if he's taken measurements and tuned his speakers' LF to the room.]

[A very happy] Mani.

[christoffe]

The new settings are incredible, in other words, the speakers can be pinpoint adjusted to the listening position. 

Joachim

[Scroobius]

Sorry Paul, the low end from your Orelinos is good, but not this good

That is great news Mani I am really glad to hear that you got your bass sorted out.

I must say, however, that when I posted "The Earth Moved" it was after the mods to my computer which produced sub low bass that really does sound as if the house foundations are moving (sometimes!!) - and that was after you heard them last ha ha.

Anyway I can't wait to come along and hear your MkII's again with added bass (if of course I get an invite!).

Cheers

Paul

[acg]

Good stuff Mani!

Like I said earlier, all the rooms with the best bass that I have heard have been measured.  It can really make a big difference.

Great that Peter was able to change the DSP to get the room working...now that's customer service right there.

Cheers,

Anthony

[manisandher]

The new settings are incredible, in other words, the speakers can be pinpoint adjusted to the listening position. 

Yep, I'm really impressed with the result too. I have to admit that both Peter and myself were really unsure whether we could use the DSP to overcome the room's null point in the 40-50Hz region. But the fact that this can be done with DSP is just great.

Mani.

[manisandher]

Anyway I can't wait to come along and hear your MkII's again with added bass (if of course I get an invite!).

You're welcome any time Paul.

Mani.

[manisandher]

Good stuff Mani!

Thanks Anthony.

Great that Peter was able to change the DSP to get the room working...now that's customer service right there.

Hey, we all know that there's no better customer service than that provided by Peter (and Ciska)!

I would recommend anyone with a pair of Orelino/Orelo speakers, who feel they currently have bass issues in the room, to give this a go. I mean, why not use their DSP to overcome such issues?

BUT... I have to say that although this whole process wasn't massively difficult, it WAS time-consuming and certainly not trivial. You have to get your head around the room equalization software, set up an appropriate sound device with input/output, set up the mic, learn how to take measurements and capture the outputs, learn how to load new filters into the speakers, and finally learn how to manipulate those filters for fine tuning.

Provided you can do all this, you should be good to go!

Mani.

[manisandher]

It looks like open-baffle speakers using DSP are now getting the credit they deserve:

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/kyron-audios-kronos-best-sounding-system-you-will-ever-hear

If MF is goo goo ga ga over these then I'm sure he'd be totally blown away by the Orelino/Orelo speakers. I mean, there is no way these 'Kronos' speakers could compete with a 118dB/w mid/high horn and 3x 15" (semi horn-loaded) bass drivers per channel. Also, I suspect the DEQX unit isn't as good as the DSP bass unit our speakers. And the Kronos speakers are way more expensive.

One thing that occurs to me is that the Orelino/Orelo speakers are not getting the exposure they properly deserve. Now that I can hear what my Orelos are truly capable of I really feel this should be fixed. But how?

Mani.