Mani's Orelo MkII speakers

[manisandher]

I'm starting my own thread to share my thoughts on my Orelo MkII speakers. Although I've had them for almost two weeks now, I wanted to wait a short while before posting my thoughts for 3 main reasons:
1. I wanted to give the speakers a little bit of time to burn-in
2. I wanted to form my impressions over multiple listening session over a period of time
3. I wanted to wait until Nick and Paul (Scoobius) had been over to take a listen and not influence their thoughts on the speakers beforehand.

I'd encourage Nick and Paul to share their thoughts in this thread. For my own part, I think I'll spread my thoughts over a number of posts.

Mani.

[manisandher]

Initial Impressions

Right from the off, my initial impression of the Orelo speakers was positive. It was clear that these were going to be different (in a good way) to any other speakers I ever owned. Here's what I thought pretty much immediately:

1. No horn 'honk' from mid/high horn

Nada. Nothing. You close your eyes and, apart from the sheer mid/high dynamics on display before you, there's no way you'd think you're listening to a horn.

2. A clarity like no other

Only once you've heard a speaker with such low distortion from top to bottom do you realise that you've been listening to distortion for so long. But lack of distortion low down takes getting used to, especially on tracks that you're familiar with on other speakers.

3. A very lean low end

Just no bass punch whatsoever. The low frequencies were there alright, but just had no attack.

Point 3 improved considerably last Friday after I played a pink noise track continuously for a couple of hours. There's no doubt in my mind that the bass punch will just continue to improve with time. I'm going to be passing a 20Hz track through the speakers for prolonged periods in the next couple of days to see if I can accelerate this loosening-up process.

Mani.

[manisandher]

Impressions after a couple of weeks

The more I listen to the speakers, the more impressed I have become. I mentioned in another thread that at some point you tend to transcend the usual hifi evaluation criteria. Even with their currently lean low end, there's a realism to the sound that just let's you relax and yet also pulls you in too. There's no question in my mind that these speakers are on a different level to any others I've ever owned.

A word about the lean low end. As I've mentioned, it's improving with time anyway. But there are 3 things that I've found have really helped:

1. Filling the wings with sand. This was a right royal PITA to do, with each of the 4 wings taking about 55Kg of sand... But I'm so glad I went ahead and did this. There was a slight 'hollowness' in the mid-bass with the wings unfilled. This totally disappeared with the wings filled.

2. The NOS1a. I haven't had an unmodified NOS1 here to compare, but compared to my Pacific Microsonics Model Two, the bass of the NOS1a is more prominent, and better in every way conceivable.

3. The Custom Filter in XX. This has been a godsend for me. So much more natural than AP in the HF, which surprisingly has such a big effect low down, giving the impression of an extended LF.

More thoughts later...

Mani.

[manisandher]

Fletcher-Munson

I'll admit to having not played around with these curves as much as it seems VJ has. Within the first day or two I determined that I strongly preferred the most extreme F-M curve (S=3, D=3, H=1) for all the tracks I played. And I've left the settings there ever since. When Nick and Paul were here today, we didn't even discuss, let alone touch, the F-M settings.

Mani.

[vrao]

Hi Mani,
  Great review, mirrors my experience in many ways. For me bass opened up in 4 weeks. It seems present but not overwhelming at the same time. Also you will notice the high frequency, output is better over time.
   Although you don't have the old NOS -1 to compare, I can at present hear a bit of harshness, and a bit of unevenness in the high frequency (?XXHE/NOS-1).
  Also noticed the normalized playback is a bit more denser, energetic and a bit more harsher (however, not accurately volume matched to the non normalized playback). I hadn't normalized at the time of my prior review.
  All the good recordings are pretty much along the FM spectrum. It's on classical, live, and poor recordings I feel it has the best response. As soon as you feel something is not right, jump up and flip a switch or two or three and see what happens.
  I'll try to post a example in the following days, provided I get the time...
   
    Cheers,
    VJ

[manisandher]

Thanks VJ. I'll start playing with the F-M settings when I hear something that doesn't sound right.

The only thing I've noticed with my current extreme F-M setting is that some vocals and lead instruments can sound a little recessed. But I really like this and find that on too many recordings, the lead vocals/instruments are way too prominent. I mean, just listen to the Mark Wilder mastered 1997 versions of 'Kind of Blue' and 'Time Out'. They are terrible. Unlistenable. The trumpets/saxophones blast out whilst the rhythm sections are barely audible. If you listen to earlier versions of these (on CD or vinyl) there's a much better balance to the sound. Interestingly, on the recent Mark Wilder 24/192 release of KoB, the balance is identical to the earlier versions. Much, much better. Oh, and whilst I'm on it, I wasn't very impressed with this 24/192 version of KoB when I first heard it. But with the Orelos (and NOS1a, and Custom filter) it now sounds very, very good.

Mani.

[Scroobius]

Thanks to Satti & Mani for their excellent hospitality on a fine day yesterday Nick and I had a great (and illuminating) day.

First of all immediate impressions - OH BOY the Orello Mk II's are BIG the pictures that Mani posted (and indeed those that Nick took yesterday) are very misleading looking much smaller than in real life.

First NOS1a - this is a BIG improvement on NOS1. I took Mani's other NOS1 (with Dexa) back and so we were able to compare NOS1 with NOS1a. I won't say any more about the 1a because others have covered it elsewhere but NOS1a is special - very special.

And now on to Orello MkII. This was the first time that I have heard a horn (Orphean) that sounds right to my ears. But that is with NOS1a - going back to NOS1 it was not so good and many of the "problems" I always had with horns again became apparent. It is clear that this horn implementation is special and starts to fulfill what I always hoped a horn could do also maybe a horn to some extent is incredibly revealing of the input. BUT there are a couple of downsides first is that they did not quite sound as "sweet" and smooth as I would like. Singing voices sounded fantastic but ultimately not quite smooth enough. HOWEVER that is almost certainly because they need more running in and I think that they will settle down over the coming weeks. Before I move on though we were sitting quite close to the horns (8' ish) and I would prefer to be further away to reduce that "in your face" impression of the horns and to get a more real life perspective. But maybe that is just a personal thing.

Now on to the bass. First the bad news immediately it was clear that just now Mani's set up is bass light - very bass light. We played tracks with bass lines that I know very well and they were almost completely missing. It sounded as though nothing was happening in the 35 - 100Hz region. I stood behind and in front of the Orello's and there seemed to be very little difference in bass - and I know that is not right. It has to be that much more running in is needed because there is a long way to go to get bass that properly underpins the music.

But now the good news - we played a track well known to both Nick & I with much percussion and electronic sounds. Apart from missing bass lines I have never heard a speaker come close to the Orello for speed accuracy and punch - a big step towards how it should sound live and very impressive.

There is one thing I would have to "play with" in Mani's set up. He uses a very long balanced i/c (14 meters was it Mani?). My system is extremely sensitive to i/c's and if it were me I would have to start off with a short i/c of known construction (to me) just to find out if was impacting the sound. I don't know if that i/c is impacting performance but for me I would have to find out.

So overall very interesting both Nick and I were agreed that we had a glimpse of a sound quality that potentially could be a big step towards live sound. But I suspect that Mani's system is at the start of the 'running curve' and there is a long way to go.

Cheers

Paul

[AlainGr]

Hi Mani,

I know it will sound heretic, but have you tried with the PM 2 to compare ?

And like Paul suggested, maybe with shorter cables ?

I did once a test with my PC and NOS1 in another room, with XLR cables. I don't know what took me to buy these extra long cables (75 feet !) and with a higher inductance (not good) than the ones you have (can't recall what it was, but it was high). The sound was "grey". That was all for my experience and I quickly moved the PC and NOS1 back where they were before...

Alain

[manisandher]

There is one thing I would have to "play with" in Mani's set up. He uses a very long balanced i/c (14 meters was it Mani?). My system is extremely sensitive to i/c's and if it were me I would have to start off with a short i/c of known construction (to me) just to find out if was impacting the sound. I don't know if that i/c is impacting performance but for me I would have to find out.

And like Paul suggested, maybe with shorter cables ?

Well, I did as much due diligence as possible before deciding to put the cables under my floorboards and moving the NOS1(a) into my basement 10m away. There are three reasons why I'm confident these 10m cables, that I bought through Juan, are not playing any part in how the Orelos are currently performing:

1. With my previous setup (BD-Design amps and Celestion SL600s speakers), I tried these cables in the listening room alongside a bunch of other 1m cables. The 10m cables [at least] matched my 1m anti-cables in overall SQ, and importantly showed pretty much the same HF response and transparency.

2. Indeed, the 10m cables are transparent enough to easily show any changes in XX filters, different DACs, etc.

3. No one who has heard my Orelos has complained about a lack of HF. And it's there, surely, that the audible effects, if any, of long cables would be most noticeable.

In any event, I love having a listening room totally uncluttered with equipment and gear. So the NOS1a is definitely staying where it is. If in the future I feel something is lacking sound-wise, I may well try another pair of 10m cables. But right now, I have absolutely no inclination to.

I know it will sound heretic, but have you tried with the PM 2 to compare ?

Alain, I used the PM2 for a couple of days with the Orelos until the NOS1a arrived back. Let's just say that there's no way I'd even think about replacing the NOS1a with the PM2. There may well actually be more LF weight with the PM2, just like there is with my non-upgraded NOS1, against the NOS1a. But it's clear to me that this is a case of quantity over quality.

Contemplating using any DAC instead of a NOS1a is about as heretical a suggestion as can imagine in hifi 

Mani.

[AlainGr]

Hi Mani,

I was quite sure that you experimented quite a few things before installing everything, but your explanations are priceless for those who would not ask these questions but would wonder

The NOS1 (will be with an "a" when Peter will ask me to send it) is my reference, so I know what you mean. That was why I put the word "heretic" - I even hesitated before writing my questions

And I know I am in very good company here, with "our family", either from XXHE, the NOS1 and/or the two of them. Be assured that I heavily rely on what I read here (and appreciate)

...And I consider that you are a lucky man to have such wonderful speakers 

Regards,

alain
Edit: I replaced "gifted" with "lucky man" - my bad (English is still a work in progress for me)

[PeterSt]

We played tracks with bass lines that I know very well and they were almost completely missing.

Hi Paul,

The other day I shouted "Houston !" because there's an unexpected phenomenon going on : everybody is lacking the reference;

I know, we could easily stick for now to the "must break-in" but I had rather that we all start to realize what we listenED to. But how to do such a thing ...

I will try to put it the most mildly and also most honestly to my own knowledge, with the explicit remark that I myself have an experience of close to a year by now;

In that year I learned which recordings do well on the low end and which fail. This latter group is fairly easy to lay out : all what is high passed for LP. And this is about all of them.
So this is where it starts; experience.

But the experience goes along with the ability to "hear" or understand what is OK and what is not. I will try to give a more technical example :
What I saw is that anything which was high passed for LP does not contain LF under ~30Hz. We'd say that this is not too bad, because there is nothing much playing under there anyway (which in itself is totally wrong, but not of interest for now). But what does it mean - high passed so that nothing under 30Hz shows ? well, assumed that any filtering can't have been too steep, think about a start of roll off at 60Hz which is 3dB down at 30Hz. But think steeper if you like and start at 60 means -6dB at 30Hz. Or more steep ... it all doesn't matter much. What does matter though is where the roll off starts and when steepness is to be avoided (ringing) then make 120Hz as the start of the filter.
Understand where I am going ?

No, I don't think so.

Any regular speaker we run into, will have its low end at the same 30Hz. Maybe a few Hz lower. But because this is mechanical limitations (there is some more to it but with same result) this implies actually heavy distortion. This in itself means that when something is playing at say 32Hz which is possible (low E electric bass or whatever) that this right away expresses way loud at 64Hz. And you won't know the difference because of the nature of the guitar (which is quite square to begin with - double bass the same - kick drum the same - etc.). 64Hz is also better audible for us than 32Hz.
What we are used to is hearing that 64Hz distortion which just looks like a harmonic (2nd) of 32Hz.

Two things happen at the same time :
1. Because of the high pass the 32Hz is way down compared to original;
2. Because the speaker itself does not distort you don't hear the 64Hz you are used to.
So ?
So you hear a faint bass.

How do we solve that ? Easy, add e.g. 12dB of bass "somewhere". And this is the point - we can not do that because we'd have to know the high pass filter function and we don't. Besides, this differs per recording (say pressing) of course. But IF we'd manage, then all is wrong.
It is wrong because also quite many albums exist which were not high passed. To me they sound 100% OK to my ears, so to me they will sound 200% wrong when 12dB of bass would be added. This is two folded again :
1. The bass will be way too loud to begin with;
2. Distortion will be my share.

#2 is odd and carries an unexpected effect;
My 30Hz story from above applies. Only this time it plays at 20Hz. Why ? well, because the speaker can do it. But it wasn't made to be 12dB louder compared to the rest of the spectrum (that 88dBSPL reference). So now some ambient roll (your punch) comes along, but 40Hz "square" is made of it. How will that sound ? No idea, but undoubtedly not real (how can it, whilst 20Hz should be inaudible while 40Hz is not inaudible at all).

My "Houston !" sprung from the acknowledgement that I am the only one as of now with the experience on what recordings "work" regarding this and which do not. You guys just don't know about the whole phenomenon (btw no matter I keep on referring to The Wall in MSFL vs. normal).

The "Houston !" also - and maybe mainly - refers to it being nice that I learned to live with this all very well, but that this does not imply you can. Or at least not out of the box. But maybe even never for the greatest satisfaction.

The theoretical solution, and I think I ancounced that already somewhere, is a somewhat higher bass output (say 2.5dB) but with a cutoff (start point) at 30Hz.
I never tried it (and would not like it either I think) but now rolled off high pass is pumped up (could even go progressively to counteract the roll off in the other direction) but won't go wrong in the really low frequencies (like under 27Hz).
But no ambiance any more either.

And that's the whole point - it is the recordings. Not that *I* knew that a year ago ...


Another for me funny thing is that nobody asked for more bass. You can (not) read it in the forum and have my guarantee that it was not asked off line as well. So somehow (I think) we feel it is not the solution. It suits us actually, but also feel that something is not right.
I can keep on repeating it forever : feel your woofers. Why ? because you will learn from it so much. An example (without really knowing !) could be Hot Chocolate - Emily. Nice bass ? no - no bass at all. Still we would swear that this is bass. But if it was the woofers should move (under 240Hz).

I recall handing VJ a track after similar remarks as the text in your quote imply Paul; VJ gave me his track (with just no bass in it at all except when played on a heavily distorting boom-box) and I have him one of mine. The accompanying text went like "starts with pure sine of something like 28Hz and further down the line it gets square and you will perceive that as lower picthed" (which it is not, because just on/off actually). That cured a few things (but VJ may confirm himself - or not) because it shows what albums it actually needs.
Sadly this does NOT tell that we should be satisfied with all our albums which sounded nicely bassy but now do not much any more.

A maybe better example :
I went through 20 or so percussion albums I have in a gallery somewhere (I have many more, but these were grouped as such). NONE of them worked. Very very easy to blame the system. But what's not there is not there and try to bring that back and other anomalies occur.
Remember the hard time in finding a good drumming recording ? that ended with that Paul Klipsch from 1953 or whatever long year ago; it was created for download from master tape only a few years back. *That* works.

Finding the recordings (pressings) which were not high passed and still are OK is not an easy task. They'd have to be from beyond the LP era which makes them subjective to compression right away (because now digital era).

I will stop here for a while, but do acknowledge some "Houston !" for sure. But I will also make a filter which hopefully works for the very better assumed no large orchestras are played (because there goes the ambiance).
If only nobody thinks the speaker is not capable. You don't want to know ...

Or ?

Peter

[manisandher]

Peter, some thoughts on your post above later, but for now...

I've just run a series of 1/3 octave band tracks (ripped from the MFSL 'Soundcheck' CD), from 20Hz up to 20KHz. It's clear that there is a 'suck-out' between ~40Hz and ~80Hz in my room. I've never noticed this before. The 20Hz, 25Hz and 31.5Hz tracks show plenty of energy (the 20Hz can hardly be heard, but it definitely energizes the room). There is a significant drop in energy on the 40Hz, 50Hz, 60Hz and 80Hz tracks. The energy starts returning on the 100Hz track.

The speakers no doubt need more burn-in, but maybe there's more to my currently lean low end? Any thoughts anyone?

Mani.

[manisandher]

And I know I am in very good company here, with "our family", either from XXHE, the NOS1 and/or the two of them. Be assured that I heavily rely on what I read here (and appreciate)

...And I consider that you are a lucky man to have such wonderful speakers 

Ah, there's no question I'm a lucky man with life in general... speakers included. But we're all lucky to be part of probably the best audio community on the planet.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani, don't laugh or cry ...

The speakers no doubt need more burn-in, but maybe there's more to my currently lean low end?

Did you feel the woofers ?
Anyway, tell me.

Regards,
Peter

[AlainGr]

Peter, just a suggestion ? Maybe send to Mani a file consisting of a drum session that you use to make comparisons on your system ?

Alain