First impression of the NOS1a (and Orelo)

[christoffe]

It will certainly test Peter's assertion that the sound (in the bass?) is pretty much independent of room shape and size.

There is no chance to "outfox"/bend elementary physics!!!!

Joachim

Edit:

Another excerpt out of an article
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/theroom/8.html

Start reading at para 4, please

-Quote-
Many self-professed audiophiles—including until recently myself—really do not possess a full understanding of what goes on inside their listening rooms. Every room including yours has resonance modes. "A bass note that matches one of the room’s resonance node frequencies will have a very boomy and long decaying sound. When the bass note matches a non-resonant room frequency you end up with a very rapid decay note followed by the resurgence of the sound to within 10dB of the original level." Amazingly—and this is really important—the actual frequency of the reflected sound is changed resulting in a dramatic coloration with a profound impact on listening. As we all go to extraordinary lengths to tweak our systems via seeming insanities like special cables, risers, magic dots and countless dollars in equipment, without acoustic treatment the sound is wrong.  It might be enjoyable and somewhat pleasant but it's not accurate and it's not what's on the recording. 
-Unquote-

[Scroobius]

There is no chance to "outfox"/bend elementary physics!!!!

Hey Joachim - Absolutely correct and from what I have read it is not even possible for experts to computer model what happens in any room because small irregularities in the build of walls etc produce big differences in reflections of long bass wavelengths.

Even so the directivity of bass in Orelxx and zero phase difference between channels in NOS1 prevents many of the reflections to start with. Anyway there will for sure be room effects.

Paul

[PeterSt]

Hey Joachim - Absolutely correct and from what I have read it is not even possible for experts to computer model what happens in any room because small irregularities in the build of walls etc produce big differences in reflections of long bass wavelengths.

Even so the directivity of bass in Orelxx and zero phase difference between channels in NOS1 mitigates many. Anyway there will for sure be room effects.

Phew, you were just ahead with that Paul; nice lead in for what I wanted to say anyway;

So I do bend physics, just because I like to do so in the first place.

Reading such article, it goes wrong in the first sentence because it assumes audible standing (/cancelling) waves as the base. Of course, easy to say, "each room has room modes etc. etc.", but simple question Paul : where were mine ? Or weren't you looking for them ?
There just isn't any. Only that one small corner with "headphone idea" and then only with face into that corner. Already this is a strange phenomenon, because while things in that corner seem to collect, it is that only and nothing like standing waves, more bass, or out of balance. Better think about how that can work (I have no real clue).

Next one : the directivity;
I have mentioned it all so often, but maybe I only learned very recently that no matter I pose the idea with the claim of "see, NOS1 can do that", I never (ever) got confirming feedback. Ok, people can forget to give the feedback, perhaps. However, I showed it to Paul, and to my own surpise he was floored. Well, at least more than I expected, just because he has a NOS1 so why would it be such a surpise to him. For others : I am talking about the localisation of pure bass without higher frequencies in them which would more easily locate the position. I am also talking about a phenomenon I apparently can only talk about but not lay out by other's references; what you never heard you never heard. Except of course when a real double bass would be in your room, playing in a corner and not from the middle.
So Paul, I am sure you will allow me - from your email from yesterday :

Hey Peter - I am listening to Mule just now and I can tell you for an absolute fact that the bass comes from the middle or no rather it kind of comes from all over the place so something must be wrong ha ha!!

Of course Paul, you will not be the measure and possibly some out there are able to "do" what I do in my room, but still nobody told me so.

However, at Peter's I also found the bass to be light.

No Paul, you did not. You did explicitly not or otherwise you were faking. But, do not try to let punk sh*t work which possibly shows more rumble for situations you are used to (see quote of your email text above).
So if you (dare) tell me that this same double bass was too light or that it is better in your room today, *then* we have a discussion.


The above is only exemplary for how difficult it apparently is to talk about audio, even after being together in a same room and in aftermath people can dream away only by reading an article like that from 6moons. An article which seems so logical. Yes Paul, for your room it most probably will be, with the speakers you currently use. Of course, this is not about you, nor is it about Joachim or anybody else for that matter - it is about how easily we are fooled by perceived logic and science and what not. You where there man ! Even Joachim was there, although at that time (3-4 years ago) I for sure did not solve all my standing waves.
And no, I did not change a single thing to my room and no, it is not treated with anything and yes I have my curtains open, and indeed it is as hard as can be all over (not the floor).

Can we think about this please ? I mean, how devistating that alone already has to be ?
And eh, any experiences with open baffle speakers and where they all shoud NOT be placed ? Noticed where mine are positioned ?

So with this all together, let's now review how physics just *are* bended. IOW, all open for discussion. But first we must agree that nothing exhibits in my room which even smells like room modes. Still - and indeed - I *will* have those too.
So ?

Peter

PS: If you watched carefully () you can see that in the most profound bass area I added 5 (FIVE) dB over the weekend. All still fine in my room.

PPS: Another hint is that I can also play easily over a 100dBSPL and still nothing detrimental will happen (maybe we did that Paul, I forgot).

[christoffe]

So if you (dare) tell me that this same double bass was too light or that it is better in your room today, *then* we have a discussion.

Hi Peter,

the SQ of the bass in Pauls rooms must be different to the bass in your room, that is pure logic. (see Manis "holes" in the LF curve, which are not present in your room)

The sound in your room is very good (to my astonishment) with  the glas walls all around. The diffractions due to the shelfs, sofa, table, carpets and kitchen area are/may creating "wonders".

Joachim

Edit:

As far as I can rememeber all walls are not rectangular to the other??? (90° angle)

[Scroobius]

standing waves ....... but simple question Paul : where were mine ?

Very simply I did not hear any standing waves at Peter's and I did not hear any standing waves at Mani's. None ......... zippo!!!.

As Peter mentioned there is one corner in Peter's room where if you stand right in the corner looking at the wall (with Dunce's cap on ha ha) there is a strange room effect. Bizarrely though if you turn around and face outward it seems to disappear. Odd! but other than there really are no standing waves that I could hear.

bass light........No Paul, you did not

MMmmmm .... weren't we listening to W8 and your MkII's completed with notch at 90Hz? seemed to me on most recordings to be bass light although I have to agree that the double bass on that particular Mule recording seemed fine.

I showed it to Paul, and to my own surprise he was floored

Yes I have to say I was surprised to hear a double bass so clearly coming from a particular direction. Simply because I never heard that before. I guess the reflections and standing waves in most (all!) other listening environments including mine preclude that. It is very well established in audio theory that all sound can be directional it is just that I never heard it actually achieved before.

Cheers

Paul

 

[PeterSt]

As far as I can rememeber all walls are not rectangular to the other??? (90° angle)

Correct Joachim. The only "even" wall is where the loudspeakers are (in round corners); all of the remainder has strange angles.

But that is not really doing all of the tricks - or maybe almost none;
When the house was new I was using all sorts of PEQ's and room correction. But that vanished when the SQ improved and when I started to use "standing waves" as a sheer measure. So for example, when I'd now use another DAC and/or another player, all is back and buzzes as hell.

Thanks,
Peter

[PeterSt]

MMmmmm .... weren't we listening to W8 and your MkII's completed with notch at 90Hz? seemed to me on most recordings to be bass light although I have to agree that the double bass on that particular Mule recording seemed fine.

Paul,

Now you (again) fool yourself by an "article". This time though the "article" is my own (the Twip topic).

But of course I too must be honest, and if I claim that this "Twip" is for the better, I too have fooled myself. How ? measurements. I can (and should) also say it like this :

If I am supposed to be correct now (W7 measures differently than W8 which is where I made the mistake) then in aftermath you are correct just the same. But please notice that "in aftermath" is very different from not being satisfied when at the spot. Same counts for me myself : I have not been in lack of anything (but a handful of albums) which does not mean we can not improve (forever so to speak).
I can also say that I have been teasing you with my previous post because I too know what happens (or what can happen) but still I am totally honest each and every day.

Let me also say in all honesty that I am not and never will be God or something, and that my perception of things is one big long lesson just the same. This can be read as : when you all complain enough, at some stage I have to listen to you and (try to) do something about it. This in itself though is not easy at all, because I also know how different all can be in different rooms and I need good theory to let happen things for the better. So :

When I measure to my best capabilities and tune the lot to that, I refuse to tweak stuff for dips and whatever, just because it is MY ears which may tell me so. It can only end up for the worse because my ears are not yours and although I try to be not subjective, we still don't know what we both perceive, especially not when you are there and I am here (with the all over different rooms). So one solution only : measure and think that straight should be the thang.

Until I find theories that disprove it. And this is what has happened now (mind you, still theories only, but logical enough to let me start travel a path of changes).

But of course it is too d*mn idiot that the Operating System used for measurement makes THE difference.
So there we are - in the midst of the most difficult subject (audio) to communicate over through words, and I don't see it becoming more easy. But better Sure Yes. And your hope ? That I don't *want* to do it alone.

Thank you Paul,
Peter