Orelo MK-II mini review

[vrao]

 I have been fortunate to be playing with the Orelo for the last few weeks, and thought I should put in a few words out. I was somewhere mid or late with the Phasure DAC, and always seem a bit behind anyways to participate!

Well I'm fortunate with the speakers 

A complete/comprehensive review might not be possible because these speakers are quite unique with the front end (XXHE) as well as the settings on the speakers making them quite (edit:) "versatile"

I prefer to go into details in each of their specific abilities on separate threads.

Few quick things for completion on this mini review

High frequency: crystal clear, smooth. Best I've heard so far, pleasing to the ears. Not one grain of harshness.
Mid Fq: crystal clear. This and hi-freq will be dealt in detail on the FM thread.
Bass: very interesting, low distortion easily experienced. Open baffle bass  .   A separate bass thread required.
Tonality: perfect!
3D: equal or better than omni and dipoles. Still a working progress with speaker placement, and settings.
Image density: totally convincing playback
Image size: authentic for all types of music I've tried so far!

Interesting points:
1. Easy to detect square waves especially with electronic music.
2. FM curves make these speakers very interesting and unique.
3. Can easily see how the recording artist manipulated the sound for good or bad
4. Finally it is nice to have good bass.
5. Oh yeah, they don't honk. If I placed a curtain, or blind fold anyone and walk them into the room, they will not be able to identify this from real music .... Sheffield drum CD, Chesky test CDs perfectly recreated.

In many ways I would consider these speakers land mark design. Highly recommended IMHO

Fit/finish: 10/10
Communication: 12/10  Peter/Bert --> awesome guys
Well planed design, with future upgrades in mind, kudos guys!!

Few minor things are still a working progress.


Rest to come,

VJ
 Ps if I missed anything specific someone was looking for, please don't hesitate to ask.

Oh yes, I have a very strong set of references, I've heard almost all the typical luxury/High end products on the market, in show conditions and demo rooms. Even though I haven't changed too many speakers, I've had a flurry of amps pass thro my system (some of them product of the year etc), and even though I haven't talked much about the inbuilt active amplification, there is not much to say, that it is perfectly mated to the speakers, it's the best I've heard so far!

Ps(2) as one can see, I've compiled the review somewhat unorthodoxically, since I've taken a lot of things for granted. For example, no head to head comparison with other products, not feasible due to the unavailability of different amps at this point in time, even more a reason -->"not necessary" ). Only reference is pure live music. In many ways the complete "XXHE system" in a different orbit. The whole system just works!!!
I've achieved goals close to this in a couple of my prior systems (a bit different), but none like live!

[manisandher]

Hey VJ, you beat me to it! I won't have mine until I get back home from my current work trip (hopefully it'll be sometime next week, unless I hear otherwise from Bert). I'll post my thoughts here also once I've had a chance to listen to them for a few weeks.

Quick question: are you using a NOS1a? I should receive my upgraded NOS1a at just about the same time that the speakers arrive... assuming Peter can fix his cable supplier woes.

Thanks for the 'mini review'. My mouth is watering more than Pavlov's dogs'.

Cheers, Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hi there VJ,

Super nice to read this all ...

Not one grain of harshness.

You will learn that there still is. You just wait for your new NOS1a and we'll hear about this again. All is relative of course, but ...

What has not been said - at least not to the public - is that I *had* to improve the NOS1 because with this speaker it is now better audible what is "wrong". Once again it seems strange that such a thing can be done (like ask PeterSt and he will improve) but all is often a matter of priorities. So to my ears it really is so that the enormous level of the high frequency output (for me there since I have my own MKIIs) makes audible what's still not 100% (whatever that is). It even is so that it requires a new Arc Prediction Filter in XXHighEnd because with the improved NOS1a now THAT became audible.
Crazy.

Anyway, expect some more ! but really in a quite different part of the whole "spectrum" than you can imagine. Promise.

I prefer to go into details in each of their specific abilities on separate threads.

(people may think that I already heard all through email, but this is not so)

Tonality: perfect!

Now I am really honoured. Well, all of course starts with the (Bert's) design and how that allows for this, but if you'd know what all can be set (and had to be) for internal now fixed values and what million possibitilies in the DSP exist and that this all had to be done in a room not taking the room into account because your room is a different one and where no correction should be needed to my firm belief ...

3D: equal or better than omni and dipoles.

This is a nice one with more value to me than can be read without context. So ... I am always thinking this but a subject it is never and I can't compare either (would need dipoles to be dragged into my room). Next it is generally accepted that horns are horns and thus few "3D" to be expected. But again, it is no subject ever so all is taken for granted and I don't even think about it (any more).
Now *I* can tell you that this is a fairly expllicit subject of VJ who out of all went from explicitly chosen pure omnis to ... horns. I myself at this moment won't be able to compare the virtues of the one to the virtues of the other, but I know VJ can and did that, with anxiously waiting for the result. OK ... but this does not readily tell that the result on "3D" not even turns out for the worse. So I am surprised but still with the notice that I don't lack anything regarding this myself.
VJ, if you have anything to add or elaborate (technicalities) at least I will love to read it.

If I placed a curtain, or blind fold anyone and walk them into the room, they will not be able to identify this from real music ....

Jajajajaja. This goes quite far you know.
OK ... I did not say it myself yet, but I dare claim the same by now. One difference ... NOS1a.
But at least I am open mouthed each next evening, finding that automatically SQ improved because of my new NOS1a still breaking in (but at day 45 or so). With "open mouthed" I mean seriously that.

Thank you VJ. I really hope to read more of it. But especially for others that is a good thing because I can only relate to my own previous situation and all goes quite graduately. And otherwise it will be tough if people can listen to me only.

Peter

[vrao]

Hi Mani,

As I mentioned I was fortunate to get these Orleo's. Maybe I harassed them more than you?

You will find these speakers have a learning curve, small but (indefinitely) extended learning curve because of its versatility.

I have the NOS-1 , again I'm still a bit behind on the DAC arena.

Peter,
Final word on imaging may take a bit of time. Placement is different, the omnis were along the long wall, further apart, and the Orelo on the short wall. Even though both are big speakers, Orelo is much larger, so I need to play with placement. Again with more of the music I've heard, there is a similar sense of imaging.

Cheers,
VJ

[vrao]

So I thought I will post a long term "mini" review.

So called reviews one sees on the magazines is just the flavor of the months, till the next best thing overtakes it in every 6? Weeks 

So after owning the "complete" Phasure system for more than a year all I can say is that this HAS been the best purchase I've ever made in my audio history. I look around occasionally at the market, and then laugh at the same old "sling with a new bling"

No ground breaking technology has made it to the market in the last 5 years. Even if it has, it's not in the realm of acceptance into my audio domain.

I recently visited THE Show @ Newport Beach. Contrary to the "joke is at the bottom of my foot" in terms or performance, there were many which did portray "some" promise .... But variables such as music genre definitely played a role. Many with the special effects CDs. But where they in par? No quite, far behind ....

Most missing the most important parts of the Phasure system, solid imaging!! The SNR of the Phasure system is incredible. Also the adaptability of the FM curves for the ear brain to quickly get acclimatized to a particular album for intense interpretation! I recently added vibration dampness to the server and the DAC, made an interesting difference. Now I was confident that I could add Clarixia back into the system, the Aqvox seemed a bit dull and slow. I'm now on all Orange in the FM curves, can play with all greems(flat) now, but I think it's the room that's responsible for present the FM settings.

It was an educational experience to go back and listen to tube amps at the show (prior owner of OTL amps). I spend a considerable amount of time with the WaVaC, the 833 tubes are indeed sexy to look at, but they are the "best worst amplifiers" as someone prevoiusly mentioned, kind of sterile, with a very precise sound. 211 are quite interesting, Bernings did play well, but they were demoeing some bass EQ device, and the music was quite bass heavy. The music was loud enough to disorient me multiple times during the demo!  Those tube have some interesting under harmonics, that one can/should persue further (if looking for tube amps). I believe that amp did have plenty of vib dampening tech inbuilt. They did have a SNR which rivaled the Oreleos. The 6C33C-B tubes did a lot of things correctly, in spite of their faults, one being lower resolution. Tone and timber are quite thick and flushed. 300Bs are quite colored, at least in the topology I heard them in. One offs like the AA62B of Ayon or the GM100 from NAT are way too colored. EL84s (EAR) could not be evaluated as they were teamed with the wrong technology (ceramic drivers). Quite an educational experience to breeze through so many harmonic manipulators!! I can see why people can get caught in one of these tube traps (not in a negative way).

SS components I'm not going to comment on as there was nothing interesting, after hearing the EMM labs, Esoteric, Bicrasti M28, the MBLs. 

Or even the hybrid amps like Ypsilon or Einstein!

Why am I combining a show review with a speaker review follow up. Only after living with a speaker for more than a year and with more than 2000 hrs in playback, fiddling around with every nook and cranny of the loudspeaker, and the front end I can confidently tell, I'm familiar with these speakers and also the DAC/server. And the sound they create is well beyond what is commercially available.

Do they have drawback, yes, one pressing one for me. First one has to understand that I come from a omni/dipole speaker prior to Oreleos. So soundstage can still be improved. I haven't tried the new 2.01 XXHE as yet. But I feel this part of the process requires a bit more of work.

P.S. Going back and hearing the Omnis or dipoles such as the  MBLs, perfect 8 or the Larsen speakers, was not authentic enough. To faded and dim sound stage. Ofcourse these speakers can be room sensitive. Moreover I'm a classical music fan....

Overall my family and I have enjoyed more music in the last year, Since I can remember!!  Every day I can appreciate the special qualities of the system. interests have changed, now in getting more music. Since last Christmas the music collection is growing rapidly.

**edit**
Forgot to add the DACs, nothing that I heard made me think to change direction at this point of time, may it be Eoteric, MSB, Lampi, EMM, Bicrasti, NADAC etc.

Kudos Peter!! **and Bert!!

VJ

[vrao]

A yearly follow up ....

I've recently updated my Oreleos to the VR edition. B)

Virtual reality edition

Only a few minor changes needed. But the sound now is phenomenal.

[PeterSt]

Does it require Google Glasses ?

[manisandher]

Hey VJ, so what does the VR Edition entail? Is it available for all Orelo owners? If so, make sure you spread the word. (Of course, it no longer applies to me... )

Mani.

[vrao]

Peter,

Yes glasses can be used, but of a different kind

Mani,

Every Oreleo owner can easily upgrade, so can other too. More to follow. Mundane work day will not permit from a detailed explanation right now.

Best,
VJ

[vrao]

So,

Virtual reality edition might be bit of a hyperbole. But....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM

Room is the "elephant" in music reproduction...

I got room treatments (GiK acoustics) and changed the position of the speakers to accommodate them. This is for the fist reflections and bass. And it's not a small change ..... most critical Upgrade imho. The issues with flutter echoes (one will not know how much is present, till it's contained), and bass modes, have been solved to a great part. All of a sudden the SNR is off the roof (which entails retrieval of ultra-low level details a not just John Doe low level). The imaging definition, depth and low level signal linearity, detail is actually appreciable at this point of time. All of a sudden the previously familiar albums, are now playing in virtual reality, as funny as it sounds in equipment reviews.... an entirely new experience. And I would not put it lightly .... . It takes a lot for me to get excited, for me this is a big change..!!

Also appropriately recorded albums can elicit a near surround sound Effect. Ex: Roger Waters- amused to death (p.s. I had to listen to it twice, the previously barely interesting album, yesterday blew my socks away in scale and presence); I Ching; DSOTM. I'm not talking of music barely making it outside the speakers .... but music coming from nearly behind ....  I call it envelopment (  or VR   ), with the proper implementation by the mixing artist.

This exemplifies what the Orelos are capable of, also the rest of the chain. This setup now for me is going the right direction, exemplifying the systems inherent properties, avoiding any extrinsic anomalies. I can listen at very high volumes and hear more into the music without smearing or distortion.

Reference level performance...

[PeterSt]

[manisandher]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM

Interesting talk. However, I can't help but think that it's overly-focused on the frequency domain, and not enough on the temporal domain too. For example, I've owned a particular pair of speakers in the past that measured very flat and went very low in the LF. However, they achieved this with a pair of downward-firing ports. The bass was there, no doubt about it, but it was slow and sluggish. It seems to me that there's never such thing as a free lunch.

He talked about active speakers as being the golden standard, because you can more easily tune to get a flat FR. But I still can't get my head around how to manipulate the 'natural' (i.e. unadulterated) sound from the speaker whilst avoiding any detrimental side effects, such as driving the drivers too hard in certain areas.  For example, when I played around with my Orelos, I had to boost 50Hz by over 20dB to get a reasonably flat in-room response. Over time I learned that this was producing some very undesirable side effects. I suppose just tweaking slightly should be fine.

But I'm no speaker designer, so what do I know?...

Mani.

[vrao]

Hi Mani,

No free lunch ....

I was aware of Oreleo's performance in my place, adding the acoustic treatments (of course I worked with a acoustic specialist), took its performance waay beyond my expectations. I was under the impression, more the reflections, the better (coming from an omniland), but not entirely so. I can't say this enough ..... the SNR is now something else! Phase manipulation, recording errors, techniques are easily heard.

All I had to do was increase the bass by 1.5dB from the factory setting. Enough to let a jet fly across the room

Also transient detail retrieval.... now indistinguishable from real.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jV5vkOhakM8
Even though most will think its present anyways (guilty myself...  ), not entirely so until reflections are well under control. 


Best,
VJ

[CoenP]

Pff.

Started with the video too. I was annoyed by the slightly arrogant attitude of this speaker. Listening to his story it seemed that audiophile/reviewer bashing was the key motive and perspective on the interpretation of his graphs. I could bear it only to halfway, but already the first few results tell a different story to me.

“ double blind tests are the best way to establish scientifically viable results”. This is one big can of worms. The discerning ability of the test subjects is also under test, so conclusions can only be drawn in a presupposed context. Stereophile’s lovely Michael Fremer once had a 100% correct score in blindly discerning different audio components and was excluded from the test results as a “statistical insignificance”. What are you trying to prove or learn by doing that, that MF isn't a representative person or that differences cannot be heard (-by untrained ears-)? This is as unscientific as it gets. Personally I know my system so well I can hear any change immediately, but I can guess stuff at best with someone else’s system.

“The more channels you add the less people are able to tell te difference, that’s why I use mono”. That points to a serious flaw in your testing methods dude. It also imposes serious limitations on the scope and usability of the tests. What are you trying to learn?

“People are biassed by a visual preference”. Like hell they are. The graphs shown also indicate that the test subjects can reliably discern nicely build sh*t from the real thing when looking at it while they listen. They appreciate good sounding and good-looking good stuff better. That doesn’t mean that it is irrelevant, its another limitation on your scope. It is well known that our senses work together in creating an experience along with our expectations of it. The cooperation makes the experience more intense, that’s why the experience of a live concert can never be reproduced by audio alone. That said, we may be able to get very close to recreating the audio part of it.
Imho reproduced audio is an experience in itself and the visual aesthetic of the gear and expectations of the listener are very much part of it.

Maybe it gets better later on….

regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

Especially for the American readers among us, I'd take the "you" which Coen presents several times, figurative, and not as addressing VJ directly by it. Maybe it reads the same in English/American as how we Dutch bring such things forward, but it easily is not.

And Coen, if it was your intention to address this to VJ after all, you will speak up, right ?


I now will fight my way through the video too, which so far did not work in two attempts, except for the first 2 minutes; Of course I need to know where "we" agree upon. That is, Coen and me - no need to see the video for that. And Coen, may I remind you : even with another one's system you do perfectly well and on that matter I never ever ran into a disagreement while judgement is always a work of seconds and way less. Those who think that excessive ABX is required just don't know what to listen for (and then come up with the wrong judgements after all). Btw, what to listen for can easily be learnt from someone with more experience on that.

Regards,
Peter