Bass Issue (Lack thereof)

[minzyman]

I have a few dacs at the house now and have been playing with all of them, and getting far more bass detail from my system than I ever heard with my usual setup (XX+NOS1). Here I was thinking the problem was my room, or perhaps an impedance mismatch. But for example, with the use of a borrowed QB-9 and JRiver, with a default installation on a win machine (nothing tweaked or minimized), I get a huge increase in bass and even mid bass. This is compared with my normal setup of XX with the NOS1 on the same machine. With the XX setup, the sound has always been smooth with a clean high end, but the bass has always been non-existent for me. Now I am scratching my head. What is the cause— I know this can't be correct and I need to correct.

One issue I find is that with the NOS1 (I use a preamp), the preamp vol needs to be turned way up, as the gain from the NOS1 seems low. But with the QB-9 driving the preamp, I have the vol set to the smallest increment, otherwise it will be too loud. But bass can be felt through the floor with QB-9. With the NOS1 sound, there is no bass.

Can anyone shed some light on what I am doing wrong? Would it help if I had the gain adjusted on the NOS1? Is there an impedance mismatch (which the QB-9 doesn't have)?

Thanks anyone.
/LM

[manisandher]

This is a tough one Lee...

I normally have a NOS1 here in my home office/study, but it's currently with Paul (Scroobius). In its place, I'm using an Audioquest Dragon for now. And I can say that I'm getting 'a lot more' bass than I normally do with the NOS1.

But it seems to me that its a typical 'quantity' vs. 'quality' situation. The bass sounds deep and makes the room reverberate... but I wouldn't say it's particularly tuneful.

Having said this, I've heard a stock NOS1 vs. a Nick/Paul-modded NOS1 and I have to say the latter made the former sound thin and lacking in bass.

As I said, it's tough...

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hey Lee,

Sit back and think. I just did that.
Now, of course I don't know what you exactly regard a lack of bass, but what about the Show we ran ? Was there a lack of bass ? I don't think so. Of course you can blame the speakers used there, but even if so ... (then blame your speakers).
It was your NOS1 we used.

So both feet on the ground, don't fool yourself with something else which only needs a fraction of the volume to blast the room and now *that* suddenly being good. How can it ?
But maybe it tells something;

I didn't sort it out, but wasn't the QB-9 the one with a virtual 0 Ohm output impedance ? if so, it can be that you use such poor interlinks that even the 33 Oms of the NOS1 don't do the job needed (but the QB-9 just does).

So you use a pre-amp. Why ? well, no need to answer, but try it without. Just to see whether that's the one with a too low or failing input impedance. Your power amp(s) should be okay always.

If something is "too hot" it will be very bassy from it. All overblown. You may like the bass you always lack, but that kind of bass can't be right.

Again all feet on the ground ... Your NOS1 just shows the standardized output level (actually a bit more, 2,25VRMS). This is for XLR and for RCA it is 6dB less. 6dB is not all that much, or at least not so that any other DAC only requires a first smallest volume step to blast while this standard minus 6dB remains quiet. So better investigate the QB-9 and what you have set "wrong" there (like +4dBu or whatever (Pro) output level).

All 'n all I am afraid that it is as it is, with one option only :
Very poor interlinks (or way too long, but I don't think yours are really long).

And a question : I feel you have this lacking bass issue only lately. IOW, why didn't you make any remarks during the show like "hey, NOW I hear bass !". And a suggestion : Might your answer be "but over there there also was no bass showing" then ... we have subjective ears.

So ... something is not right; you are correct on that one.

??
Peter

[PeterSt]

I've heard a stock NOS1 vs. a Nick/Paul-modded NOS1 and I have to say the latter made the former sound thin and lacking in bass.

As I said, it's tough...

Yes Mani, it is tough. It is also a bit tough for me to read that you bring this up again. So I know it is quite offtopic in here, but in my own defense, what you listen to there is all over wrong. And without quoting, there is no single way that such a setup is for the better just because I too have ears and I listen for quite some more things than others do, possibly because my situation already is quite different here. And it sure is of no use to try to correct things in aftermath and again claim that all is right now. I hope we all know what I am talking about.
The chance has been there and it failed miserably in something like 24 hours of working time (really).

But you honestly said it, it's tough. So of course everybody can do anything he likes to squeeze out more bass from e.g. speakers which inherently can't. Using Windows 7 will also help. But with decent listening it is not for the better. Some things don't even need decent listening at all but not everybody can do that. So when I claim in 5 seconds "ok, this does not work any more" the other guy may claim a "better because more bass". We can all suit ourselves. But this is different from claiming a "better" while no absolute sense exists about what better is. Let me put it more straight or more easy to understand :

"You" can fuzzy up matters by being in whatever space with tuned clocks etc. Fine. But when that's left out of the equation and your modded NOS1 (though it wasn't exactly yours) is put in my system with at the PC end nothing done but a Silverstone card, that modded NOS1 sounds the most poor of all. And with poor I mean really poor. If someone *then* thinks that any tuned crystal at the other end is going to help that, well, then maybe that someone does not understand. But it really won't help - ever.

Hey, all what I'm heading at is that -thus- everybody can do what he likes, but which is different from not quite understanding what is happening but next propose it as "generally better". So it is that part I don't like about it, and what clearly steams me up. In the end it is so simple (about bass) : when you find a tweak that let a 10" woofer (or two of them, just saying) blast out some more bass, then it only can be so that this will not work out the same for an 18" woofer. So mind you, that 10" is just totally underrated which doesn't mean that equalizing won't help; it will (to some extend). But apply the same equalizing to that 18" and ... do I need to explain ?
Similarly works jitter; jitter is audible in the lowest frequencies the best, and applying more of it will imply lower (freq.) sound but worse bass. And now don't let me start *again* about those super poor Dexa's.

So Mani, out of all this was not addressed to you of course; you only stirred my pot a little. But it should be addressed to all who so easily make the mistake of thinking something got better while actually it got worse. And this "bass" subject seemed a good one to make it clear somewhat (I mean with already proven not-working-concepts, no matter some have difficulties with that).

Things ARE mighty difficult and not everybody has the experience yet to see through all while listening, let alone that we now try to talk about it. And I too obviously learn more each single day. Really so. But anyway - and back to Lee - ...
Lee, you will recall everybody happy at the first setup in that Show room, right ? That stopped within the one minute that I was in there. But why exactly ? well, I only pointed out something, and next everybody was disturbed right away. You will never forget that any more because it can't get out of your brains any more. It only needed pointing out - done. The problem was not solved, but still the speaker owners/builders cried literally (from sheer joy) because of the sound they perceived. They probably were not used to much. Then the reviewer came in. You know, the guy that *is* used to much. That didn't last long ...

Yes, so tough.
I hope this is all taken well.
Peter

[manisandher]

I hope this is all taken well.

Not sure who this is directed at, but on my side, yes of course.

Maybe I should have qualified my listening to Paul's modded NOS1 with "... in his system"...

Once I have the Orelos here, of course I will try them with both my totally standard NOS1 and my 'Nick/Paul-modded' NOS1 and will simply use whichever NOS1 I prefer the sound of. I trust no-one's ears more than my own... including yours Peter. Do you remember the first time I came around to your place and was able to identify the hires track from the 16/44.1 one (that you couldn't)? Haha...

Mani.

[PeterSt]

And I too obviously learn more each single day.

See ?

But that wasn't about identifying; It was about which one was better and you could convince me (yes it was Yes).
However, in the end it actually was not about that at all, but about the experience and knowledge on your side what all could be from a same recording/mix and thus would be comparable. And I think I can still count that on one hand only, and THIS in itself is because I refuse to try all the sh*t out there.

But it is good you reminded me, because it is one of the situations I won't forget easily which is because I like my theories to be right, and I was not right there.

Thanks ...
Peter

[AlainGr]

Since I came back to this hobby in 2010, I never really attached much importance to the bass. I could immediately tell that the bass coming from the Tannoy speakers were "shy" compared to what I was used to listen to, but I have always felt that the bass was "fat" before, up to a point where I had trouble hearing the details of the rest of the spectrum.

While it bugged me (with the Tannoy), at the time I had (and still have) my Bryston dac, what I really discovered with XXHE is that the bass has different tones ! This has been a revelation for me.

The "subs" I got were a move I did because some friends told me they were surprised by the lack of bass. But this is how we tend to appreciate SQ or should I mention what one thinks about SQ.

With the replacement of my Bryston dac (with the NOS1), apart from the other qualities I noted, the bass is simply even more startling with the tones and the "fine canvas" it reveals.

And yes at some point I was fooled by the higher output of the Bryston (I insist on the word "fooled").

Alain

[manisandher]

The "subs" I got were a move I did because some friends told me they were surprised by the lack of bass. But this is how we tend to appreciate SQ or should I mention what one thinks about SQ.

Unfortunately, yes.

I'm currently using a pair of old Celestion SL600 speakers powered by a pair of Bert's mono amps, and man, these speakers can sing (never heard them sounding so musical until I tried them with these amps). And yet I'd bet my house that most people would comment on their lack of bass. High-passing them at around 100KHz and using a sub or two might help, but it would have to be so carefully done that I think it's more effort than is worthwhile.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Poor Lee.

Lee, nobody is neglecting your problem, and most certainly not me. I can only hope that this all brings you some insight and don't hesitate to share your thoughts. Ok ?

Peter

[vrao]

I've seen this issue with the older version of W8, while sequentially comparing 2 pairs of speakers with a particular pair of speaker cables (this was used because of convenience) a while back. I know both demonstrate that same low frequency on a pair of different cables, surprisingly one did, and the other didn't with this new cable. Of note, DAC and XXHE was not rebooted when switching speakers.

[minzyman]

Hey, thanks all for responses.

So, here's the thing. I had a BAAS event here a few weeks ago where several people brought dacs (Chord Hugo, Chord QuteHD, QB-9, iFi Dac to name a few). The sounds all of course varied. But what was most strange for me was the bass—in all other dacs (using Jriver and also Amarra on the Mac for comparison). The room was filled with it, not bloated bass but tight, appropriate bass and a tonal richness which I was not used to.

To me, low level detail is crucial. When you listen to a church organ or double bass for example, there is nothing like low level detail to get your foot tapping. And all of these dacs were providing significantly more bass than my NOS 1/XX setup, which tells me something is wrong with my configuration. I am talking about bass that you can feel (like the bass we heard Peter, from that recording when your son was playing drums) vs no bass detail at all.

There is one exception: when I play higher rez material, I get much better bass and don't need to turn the vol up so much to hear it.

You mentioned the sound at the CAL show, Peter. TBH, I noticed a brightness almost immediately, but kept quiet. If you remember, the bass was very dynamic in this room, from the Surreal Sound speakers, as the bass enclosure was actively powered by a Crown amp (with gain controls turned way up as if to EQ the bass a bit).

And if you remember, the Venture setup? What have I always said about Didi's sound? So bright and forward that I need to leave the room. This for both trade shows I witnessed. My guess is this is the way Didi likes his sound, because he sat there quite happy with it. And there were of course many strengths to his system, just not in the bass, IMO.

What should bass sound like? Ideally it should sound live. When you stand to the side of a live band and listen to kick drums, you feel them in the chest. I think this feeling should be evident in any hifi system as well, along with crystal clear but smooth highs, analog sound mids, vivid transients, etc. But like Robert Harley said once in his book, the kick drum is what gets your foot a tappin' (or something like that).

My XX setup has gone through many variations over the last two years and I've always assumed my room has significant suck out. Now I think the problem is not so much with the room, as with some lack of synergy with my system.

Will keep experimenting, but something tells me the problem lies with a low output impedance from the Dac?

One last note. I remember ripping music from HDAD discs a few years ago (to 24-192k) and getting very flat, poor dynamics from these rips. Could it be that up sampling music from XX to 768k somehow softens the dynamics a bit?

/Lee

[manisandher]

Lee, if I were you, I'd try a single HDD in your PC, so essentially you'd only have a single SATA connection.  I would install the OS and XX in a separate 100GB partition on the HDD. There would then be two options for where to store the music:

1. On the rest of the HDD, assuming it's a big one and can accommodate all your music. (This is what I do.)

2. On a NAS or other network drive. You would then need to have the 'Keep LAN services' button active, and the adjacent 'Persist' button inactive, in order for XX to shut down the LAN in Unattended playback.

Yeah, a bloody PITA I know, but it made a big difference here, I'd say especially in the bass.

Good luck.

(Totally OT: what did you think about the Hugo? I'm thinking of getting one later in the year to use during my work travels, and I'd love to hear your views, seeing as you have a good reference with which to compare.)

Mani.

[pedal]

The settings in my signature gives me a more powerful upper bass. Try it!

[minzyman]

Mani,

Will play with your suggestions and let you guys know. Thanks also to Pedal.

As for the QuteHD and the Hugo, both sounded very similar, but a tad too resolved and slightly digital sounding for me, much like the Schict Dac, which is much less expensive. The real winner of the day was the QB-9, due to its lushness, expansive sound, and overall analog-like musicality. All were in agreement on this. We used a QB-9 that did not have the dad upgrade, which I am told is very worthwhile.

The Hugo is a nice little box, but a tad too expensive I think, for what you get. The unit we used had recessed rca ports, so I couldn't use any of my cables, a big shame. Same for the tiny micro port for usb input. Talk about PITA. But overall the sound was impressive for this little walkman sized unit. And it comes with a nice analog vol control. Cool lights too.

Also of note, the group unexpectedly came to a universal conclusion about a certain usb cable. We had several cables that we played with at the end of the day, one was data only. By far the best sounding cable was the Synergistics Active SE cable, which just added a sense of lushness and rich harmonic quality to the sound. I am not big on pricey cables, but the difference was clear. And Ted always has great demos at the shows.

Thanks again guys, and Peter, for the tips. My weekend is cut out for me.

/Lee

[PeterSt]

By far the best sounding cable was the Synergistics Active SE cable, which just added a sense of lushness and rich harmonic quality to the sound.

Can be Lee. But please do notice (and remember) that when something like this is happening, something clearly is very wrong.
Of course you can like it for the better but if any USB cable (same topology assumed - like contains no power etc.) makes a difference on the NOS1 we would have to assume that something is wrong in that area.
This forum is half-full with this subject, and maybe you missed it all.
(and on this matter, we possibly never talked about the big surprise I ran into, seeing you using an active (??) USB cable at that Show)

Peter