Sound of the Orelo MKII

[manisandher]

Hey Nick, I'm a little confused. Did you listen to Peter's actual Orelo MkII speakers (the black 'Darth Vader' ones in his pics above) with 3x 15" bass drivers, or the previous Orelino speakers with 3x 12" bass drivers?

My understanding was that it was the latter. And from the sounds of it, things have moved on considerably from there with the Orelo MkIIs.

Mani.

PS. You should pity me not envy me - the wait has been a long one... and continues...

[PeterSt]

Thank you for sharing that Nick.
Btw I am positive that you pointed out the difference between what you heard (the Orelinos) and what I am writing about in this topic (Orelo MKII) but it may not be clear to everybody right away.

Afterwards Peter played a recording he had made of the same drum kit back through the NOS1 and Orelos Orelinos, you really could not tell the difference save for a slightly less pronounced kick in the chest from the kick drum, otherwise cymbals and drums were simply the same as the live drum kit  :-)

So I applied a small correction in your quote to emphasize it;
Orelo MKII has two times the woofer surface of the Orelino you heard, but I didn't try that drumming track again to check it out. But I think it will work 100% now. Claims-claims-claims

Hey Nick, I don't think I told you that because of your (mutually hastely arranged) visit I had to postpone the new speaker's arrival till the Monday after. But it really was so. I honestly had forgotten about it while you were here and only thought about it again just now.

Regards and thanks !
Peter

[PeterSt]

Hi Mani,

We cross posted somewhat but when I was finished and saw yours I let mine be as it was. But clear now I think.

PS. You should pity me not envy me - the wait has been a long one... and continues...

Yeah, and see what I just wrote about even being able to postpone (for 4 more days). Haha. So far my own wait has been longer than yours. There is a small difference though - I implied the longer lead time myself.
But this has offially passed, so from now on we can all blame Bert. LOL

Peter

[manisandher]

Yeah, and see what I just wrote about even being able to postpone (for 4 more days).

(Highlight mine.)

'Days'? What I would give for just a 4-day wait. I think you meant 'weeks'.

Nick, Paul, don't pack your bags to come over for a listen just yet. Think we'll be well into May by the time they're here...

But really, I know that a lot has gone into these speakers. And although of course I'm dying to have them here, I would much rather give Bert as much time as he needs to get things absolutely right. Once they're in position at my place, I'm not moving them for anything, and sending them back for upgrades/changes will be simply out of the question. Got to get it right first time!

Mani.

[PeterSt]

'Days'? What I would give for just a 4-day wait. I think you meant 'weeks'.

Haha, no, days. But the underlaying message was too complex to see I suppose. So, 4 more days on 165 days, who cares. And mind you, that 165 is about 165 late. But I caused a great deal of that myself, so that feels a bit different for my own. For e.g. yours it only feels worse, but indeed it is so that it is not allowed to fail.


And although it was promised in advance, already the last 4 weeks have been spent on throughput time needed to check all the settings and reality values and all. Just envision a few additional XX parameters and if you would be so kind to find the very best switchable options because they will be hardwired before delivery.
Almost undoable and feeling a great responsibility.

Regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

Think we'll be well into May

Which year would that be? ha ha

the most experience with the Avant Garde's with my notice that they bite as hell to my ears

I would say that is not the case with what I hear at Nick's they sound very good particularly in the large space at Nick's and particularly following all the work that Nick has done in tracking down problems in his system. They do show up problems in the front end though but that would be (I guess) what all horns do!!.

Cheers

Paul

[Scroobius]

......... it is my advice to force yourself into this same thinking; Only if you do that you may find the culprits. Otherwise you will be stuck with them forever.

Certainly my experience is that the "room effects" I had here with my previous Audio Note system have been greatly reduced. The reinforcements / cancellations are very significantly less with NOS/XX.

I look forward hearing Orelo MkII and my expectations are even higher now.

[PeterSt]

Whilst at Peters I listened to his son playing drums live in the house. Afterwards Peter played a recording he had made of the same drum kit back through the NOS1 and Orelos Orelinos, you really could not tell the difference save for a slightly less pronounced kick in the chest from the kick drum, otherwise cymbals and drums were simply the same as the live drum kit  :-)

So today we tried it with the Orelo MKII's together with some very well trained ears. I set it up somewhat differently this time, and now during our son Paul drumming upstairs I put up the recording and level matched it as well as possible. So the trained ears could walk from the one drumming room right into the other.
This time the result was that the pressure of the kick drum was somewhat too high now. In my view this should mean that something like 0.5 - 1dB too much energy goes to the low end.
Anyway, as I expected (and hoped) now there is headroom.

Peter

[Nick]

Whilst at Peters I listened to his son playing drums live in the house. Afterwards Peter played a recording he had made of the same drum kit back through the NOS1 and Orelos Orelinos, you really could not tell the difference save for a slightly less pronounced kick in the chest from the kick drum, otherwise cymbals and drums were simply the same as the live drum kit  :-)

So today we tried it with the Orelo MKII's together with some very well trained ears. I set it up somewhat differently this time, and now during our son Paul drumming upstairs I put up the recording and level matched it as well as possible. So the trained ears could walk from the one drumming room right into the other.
This time the result was that the pressure of the kick drum was somewhat too high now. In my view this should mean that something like 0.5 - 1dB too much energy goes to the low end.
Anyway, as I expected (and hoped) now there is headroom.

Peter

 Peter. I just want to emphasise that my comment about the weight of the kick drums is such a minor observation when you consider that the comparison is with a live high dynamic range set of instruments :-).

Great that even this small point (considering the achievement of accurately matching live drums) is fixed. What a reply system 

Nick.

[acg]

Yes Peter, I concur with Nick.  As someone who was a firm friend to a mad drummer for much of my childhood (as well as an avid fan) I have not yet met a system that can accurately and wholly reproduce a drum kit, including its presence chest rattles and all, so all I can say is WOW.

Can't wait to hear them!

Anthony

[christoffe]

Hi,

is there any CD available to listen to a "live" kick drum?

I do have some "drummer CD's" in my collection, but ..... ?

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Hi Joachim,

Maybe that exist but it will be hard to recognize for being correct in itself or not. But I think chances are zero because these recordings are not marginally better than anything I ever played here - it's almost iinfinitely better; you have no clue unless you know how a live drum kit sounds (and I am sure wel all know that).

This history of these recordings are maybe not even known to anyone, so why not tell about it ...

I guess you have heard that I buy instruments so I can compare with reality; the drum kit was amongst that (but gave it for Paul's birthday);

These recordings were taken July 29 2010, a month or so before the Big Orelo speakers went to that x-Fi show here. The tracks are named "kick drum" because Bert needed a means to check the representation of the Big Orelo speakers hence tune those 4x15" in there (also through DSP).

So here you see that setup with just two measurement microphones and 30 meters of XRL down the line at the other end a FireFace800 for ADC. The only thing we needed to spend some time on was the width of the "picture" which needs to represent the width of the instrument and maintain it's "stereo" as well.

So with some close up you can see that the kick drum should be in the left side somewhat, and it really is.
For those who heard it : we took 9 or so recording sessions of 5-10 minutes and they vary for this "picture" and the one I usually play is only played because of how the individual elements sound and not for it's best staging. But I really don't know any more the track with the best staging unless I listen to them all again. But anyway it was about the kick drum.

So ... this has been done to create the no-nonsense Orelo speaker and I can tell you, if "we" wouldn't have the drum kit at the time already, we just would have bought one for the job.

That this turned out to be a best recording I ever heard in my life from CD (or LP) was something quite else and it may make one delusional, knowing that we hunt for the best SQ which can not exist if the recording hasn't been on par. And if only our own would have sounded "maybe better" or marginally better ... but there is just no comparison. I will give you an example which could be quite unexpected :

We always talk about cymbals because they are so hard to do. How long they sound and such. But now envision just dropping the stick (I mean not smashing but let it fall) on the floor tom. This easily sounds for over 10 seconds through the speakers, just like it does in reality. Or how each tom hit  will let the others sound as well (because of the reverb into the others). Or whole the whole drumkit sounds and how the engaged snare for the snare drum always sounds when hitting something else. Or, and this too is quite revealing, how you hear back the room the drum kit is in (instead of the playback room).
If I'd sit down for it I think I can put up quite a list of elements heard which are not heard through even the very best recordings (those focused on drums included).


For a long time I had no ADC means so I haven't been able to re-do the recordings with a Paul who has grown up quite a bit by now and really hits the kit in good fashion. So I guess it is time to make a few more and put those up. Then we'd all have a reference of how these days it can be done (key is not molesting anything) with many of you owning a finest DAC for it and using playback software which also does it's best. If you then don't perceive the real thing, then maybe ...


Of course the drum kit is just one aspect of the music spectrum, but I think it shows so many crucial elements that it is quite representative for all. Not 100%, but sufficiently enough for today.

Peter

[christoffe]

Hi Peter,
thanx for your comment.

Some days ago I heard a live concert via television, and the astonishing thing was, that I heard at first a KICK DRUM. This was the major instrument.
In live concerts the drums are the loud-voiced instruments, but during the record mixing ............. !

I found a CD with pronounced percussions from Christian Prommer

http://www.amazon.com/Drum-Lesson-Christian-Prommers-Drumlesson/dp/B002V72K1W/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1396779268&sr=1-4&keywords=christian+prommer

and there is an "Acoustic Drum Solo" on the Stereophile Test CD2.

The impact of the kick drum is on both CD's not very impressive. My neighbor is a drummer and I listened a couple of times to him ............. .

It seems that we have to organize a "rally" to the Netherlands.

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Thank you Joachim.

So I tried ...

The Stereophile makes you crazy because the sticks "stick on" the skins. I suppose that's intended to create slam, but far from reality there.

Christian Prommer ? there they made a mistake and it should have been called "bass guitar lessons". Yes, I liked that. Otherwise ? Not sure where the drums were apart from "percussion". But those cymbals in there ? at "Plastic Dreams" I gave up (but played they other 3 "drum lessons").
You know, an adder "sisses". This is not a word I see used often, but at this album all sisses and not few.

Now for fun, grab Who's Next (the Who). Somehow it it slipped through my mind as even better. Now start with I'm in Tune and take the hits on the toms as a reference hence compare that with the Prommer album.
And when you're at it anyway, notice that the cymbals of this outbetter the both Stereophile and Prommer.
Btw both come across as super-slow (there's also bonga's in the Drum (last I think) Lesson track of Prommer - under water ones).
I think I heard a blurp or two from a kick drum as well. But really, "blurrrp".

So not really ...
Regards,
Peter

[brunok]

Hi:
Peter's right ... "there ain't nuthin like the real thang"! ... listening to real instruments vs a recording.  Since the low end frequencies have been the focus of some revelatory discussion surrounding the Orelo MKII's, I can see where even renting drums for a month to A - B the sound might be warranted.  Short of that though, here's a drum album some may wish to consider.  It's an older but well recorded DRUM album from Sheffield and covers kick drum to cymbals; solos and band: http://www.sheffieldlab.com/sheffield.pl?detail=SL10081.  I own it and is my go-to album for the low end... that and organ music.  javascript:void(0);

Bruno