Sound of the Orelo MKII

[PeterSt]

My own Orelo MKII's have been playing around for some 4 weeks now, and I feel it took 3 weeks for them to get loose enough so I can be definite of its qualities.

Please notice : I am not writing this as a commercial text so I will also not describe matters in absolute sense. So what I will try to describe is how this speaker will sound different to all what we're used to, regardless price. And for those who read this out of the blue without knowing me : It can only be for the very best possible in audio just because I am into that explicitly and that only. If it were not the very best to my own knowledge, it would not be here. Or at least not in this forum.
But what is "the very best" ?

First of all (and for me) : Total Neutrality;
I know, this is a tough one for a speaker, but by now I think I can say that it's easier to make a speaker "neutral" than a DAC (to name something). Anyway it is my very foremost requirement, because I just can not live with ever the same sounds which might be obvious but which is also about what you are used to (and I have been spoiled already).

So, big deal, neutrality ?
Now wait. We are talking about an open baffle speaker which is capable of enourmous power in the bass (3x 15") and don't you think that it is an easy job to make that bass neutral. I think it takes spades of experience to know what "neutral" actually is for the lower regions, and it is not just about colouring as we might know from earlier "hi-fi" eras;

When a speaker goes straight to 19Hz (+/-0.5dB) like this one it is all so easy to tune in too loud under say 30Hz. Oh, you will have slam alright when done so, but it might occur to you that the slam gets tiring after a few days. So "all the time slam" is not a neutral thing. Slam must be there when intended, and must not be there when not intended. So that's what I meant with the necessity of spades of experience, because this is not so easy to tell.
Also let's not forget our playback software and tweaks in there, because obviously we need to see through that (virtually eliminate it) to deliver an inherently neutrally sounding speaker. This is a most tough job of course.

Without wanting to drift off, I will by saying that the latter is the exact reason for all the adjustments the owner of the speaker can make. So, we know how vastly another Operating System can change the sound, or how (new) XXHighEnd tweaks do, or how others do not use a computer at all, or use Foobar etc. - it ALL makes a huge difference. Not everybody knows, but in this forum we we all do, and I think I am (allowed to be) upfront with that.

So the Orelo MKII sounds totally neutral when it was tuned to the specific situation.

Of course people may add "yeah, through your ears", but although to some degree that might be true it is only for a small degree because something like neutrality is an absolute phenomenon hence it is not subjective. But again, it needs the experience.

You may read the above as an "oh, so when I receive the speakers I must start tuning to my specific situation, right ?"
Well, sort of, but actually not. For this time assumed that the owners will all use the same best situation and which is actually depicted by this very forum, we will tell eachother what to do/set, with at least at first me ahead. So for example, when the current XXHighEnd version best utilizes Settings XYZ, then the speaker will be tuned to that by (at first) me, and all what's needed further is that we copy eachother's settings (and start tweaking from there).
So let's see what actually the parameters (possible variations) are (at least for current due owners) :

- We all use XXHighEnd;
- We all use the NOS1 D/A converter;
- We all use the same amplification (because built-in);
- We all use the same speaker wireing in normal circumstances (because built-in);
- We can all use the same DSP settings (because shared as config files);
- We do not use the same interlinks;
- We do not have the same rooms;
- We might not use the same Fletcher-Munson settings/curves (this already can depend on the genre we play);
- We might have added room correction settings in the DSP (but I never will).

So as you see not all that many variables exist and when room correction is left out of the equation, we should all be able to copy eachother's found settings and have all neutral (again).

For outsiders : This all may come across as pretty daft or stupid or strange at least, but the insiders will know that all these minute changes to software etc. can heavily/heavenly influence SQ and this sure is related to neutrality all over. Also notice that this starts with a DAC (NOS1) which is to be completey neutral, and not any other DAC will do this really, so if your's is another then you possibly won't be able to comprehend because of that already.

With all this neutrality thing it is good to realize that this speaker goes into all extremes imaginable. So it can output way more high frequency level than normally dialled in (pre-tuned here plus the Fletcher-Munson possibilities) , and it can output bass that crack your walls. So instead of squeezing out at best it's merely a hold-back at best. But of course this is a good thing !

Then the sound

We'll assume the source to be "100%". But please notice how crucial this remark is with just the (only one !) example of Windows 7 against Windows 8 and how Windows 7 will provice distorted sound while Windows 8 does not. So, all I can do is assume the best as how I have it here, and what I can add is that you can have the very same (but not my room).

Mid-bass is superb. Or at least as superb as I could make it which all depends on the bass-mid cross-over.
Notice that the X-Over has been setup such that we all can adjust it later through DSP.
The tightness of the mid-bass and the being forward of voices is scary at times.
I will honestly add that many more speakers will be good at this, because it is not related to extremes as such. In the mean time though, it depends on the speaker how difficult it is to get the mid-bass right, like where the cross-over (if any) is in the frequency spectrum.

When you envision a top end of the mid-bass, like how a blues (not bass) guitar can sound, you'll find yourself in the raging speed of the top horn with its 118dB of sensitivity.
All this speaker is about is speed-speed-speed but how speed sounds for the mid frequencies (think 500-2000Hz) is hard to explain.
Side note for existing Orphean horn owners : Although this is the same horn and drivers, nothing compares to it; your sensitivity will be 114dB (115dB for older versions like my own);
What you get from the additional 3-4dB of sensitivity is a kind of air in that mid range. How that guitar comes forward together with voices. But also how toms (drums) get their individual colour better. How metal remains that and won't get plastic.

The highs.
I have difficulty with putting into words what is going on there but maybe I can do it by referring to other types of speakers :
Say you're used to a wide bander officially rated to 16KHz (or more) then you have no highs in comparison. Just nothing.
If you are used to paper in the tweeter, then you will know that no "metal" ever came from that when listening to this.
If you are used to a dipole etc. radiating speaker, then you will know that your highs would not disturb much and can even sound warm. But if you listen to this Orelo MKII then you see the accuracy lacking in that dipole and that actually the sound is quite grey. Not fast. Smeared. Not capable of the real transients.
With the horn as used here you will see that the room can be so full of all individual ticks and squares and things all in there own position in the space. This too is all related to speed but also how a spec of 22KHz is really that.

Which brings us to the bass.
Here too, the spec of the low end "19Hz +/-0.5dB" (17Hz at -3dB) is really that and you will only know what this really means when your subwoofers are replaced by this. And how or what ? Speed again !
This time it is about the free moving diaphragms and how nothing (pressure chamber) holds back and how you will finally perceive any 32Hz as a really vibrating that. So you can do the test with speakers rated at 27Hz on the low end, and see whether you hear that 16' organ pipe (32Hz). But I don't think you will hear a thing.
So with a pair of subwoofers (or one) you will ?
Haha, sure yes, but really nothing like intended, and all it needs is going to a church with that 16' in there. Or listen to this speaker, but that's a bit tough when you don't own it;
Here too it is about the "air" which plays quite another role than "music with air" as we may know it. What it does all together is again let sustain all in its own space. An attempt :

If you put up this nice blues with the lowest key on an electric bass guitar you will hear 30Hz. But mind you, this time at "concert level" hence as loud as you may have heard it at a concert. So say this is loud, of course depending on your volume level. But while envisioning this loud bass, all the fragile highs do not mix mix up with this. Nor does a voice. Or this hi-hat playing. The brushes. This is foremost because the low frequencies were tuned so that no audible harmonic distortion is at play. So think of it : Any normal speaker will not take into account the THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) because actually nobody cares much. So, it is an official rating that woofers are allowed to show 7% of THD. You want to know how that sounds ? well, put up a 24Hz tone and listen to 48Hz and 72Hz instead. And point is : while 24Hz will just be audible when no distortion is around, 48Hz etc. is VERY audible and it blasts through the room. This is not because this harmonic is louder but just because we human can easily perceive that while 24Hz is the under limit. Stupid thing is : these distorting harmonics are related to the fundamental so it is not even easy to discern what's brought to you from how reality is. So how would you recognize a 16' organ pipe while perceiving an 8' one ? (64Hz) You won't unless you'd really know the recording and the piece itself (read : what was meant to play).
An electric bass guitar ? same hing. The guitar produces a more square sound to begin with, and a plucked string at 30Hz will show at 90Hz because of that (squared = odd harmonics). So maybe you will hear some "fundament" in the 90Hz but this is really (really !) different from hearing that 30Hz with a now more faded 90Hz on top of it (which now just creates the timbre of the instrument).
And subwoofers ? Oh, they produce 20% of THD easily.

Got that ?
Then now I possibly could explain to certain extend how this speaker changes everything and all. Almost all on the low end sounds different / real just because a. it is output at the proper level in the first place and b. it is undistorted by guarantee.
Small notice : While for mentioned 30Hz this really is so, for 19Hz the 88dBSPL reference level should not be exceeded.

So a bit more about this latter :
If we'd look at FFT analysis we can learn how "ambience" works, and what create it; the most simple example is a kick drum which forms a sort of "thunder roll shock wave" into the room, BUT the room itself contributing to that. And hey, I am referring to the recording room/space (haha, got you). What this does is turning the fundamental of 38Hz or so (this can vary) into that lower "roll" and it can go beyond 20Hz easily. Now here's a new one : You won't know about it, because what happens ?
Well, first what should happen :
The 20Hz is not audible. But it is pressure. So, you will feel it (at mentioned 88dBSPL you sure will). So it is part of the game and it is a support to that 38Hz of the kick (drum). Ok.
But when a subwoofer produces this with its high distortion, you will get 40Hz at least (and probably 60 and 80). The 20Hz will be there too but lower in energy (because the energy is now spread to 40Hz and 60Hz and so on) and the 38Hz kick drum is mixed with 40Hz so it sounds different but also louder (because the frequencies of 38 and 40 add up) and its sound will be more sharp because 60Hz plays as well.
All wrong and all not real.

Of course, when the speaker can't produce 20Hz in the first place (and no subwoofer is around) then you will nicely hear that 38Hz and no interfering 40 and 60Hz. So, good. But now the ambience has gone ...


Like with so many things in this forum, I was not dictating from any schoolbook; I obviously don't like schoolbooks anyway, but I also think that a book for this does not exist (yet).
We must realize that any normal speaker manufacturer will not go (have gone) about like this, which already starts with many things needing to come together first. Too many to exist, really.
Because this is so, I think I can claim a speaker which is so different from anything else (never mind I don't know all) that this really also *makes* the difference. I mean something like : makes the difference needed to again get a few steps closer to the real reality of music through loudspeakers.

It still needs more, and I already have again done more, but that is for another day.
Peter

[manisandher]

There's no point in my commenting on any detail of your post Peter... until I get my Orelo speakers here. But I just wanted to say thanks for sharing - as a prospective owner, I'm fascinated by what I'm about to receive.

I suspect your post will come across to many as 'marketing', but to me it comes across as 'education'. You were at this exact place 3-4 years ago with the NOS1 - trying to convince people that the generally accepted 'formula' for most DACs at the time was wrong. And of course you were at this place with XX way, way earlier than that. Let's see if you can make it 3/3.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hey Mani (and others),

So you aksed me to write something about the sound, but it occurred to me that I actually can't do such a thing. And maybe it's only because maybe more expect me to write about "the sound" because I always do. But in this case it indeed would come across as marketing, so how to do it (read : I-do-not-want-to-write-like-that). So what happened by sort of nature is that I made it a mere technical thing (which you caught well) and which to some degree felt justified for not-so-marketing like. And hopefully it comes with sufficient explanation / clarification. But maybe not easy to understand for all.

It might also not be so easy to comprehend what it means that concert level bass keeps separated from highs in their own space etc. So I have that experience, but when you don't how to know or feel what I mean with it. So ...

Let me try to express in my more normal way what I experienced only yesterday. Remember, this is after 4 weeks of owning the speaker, and then this happens for a first time :

Lately I haven't been playing much "Jazz" or the like, just because the whole Orelino setup made me want to listen more to the real basses. Yea, what to say ... real basses. By ambient sh*t. Nicely real eh.
Hmm ...
Still I liked to revisit some upright bass without being into Jazz right away, so I dug up some Renaud Garcia-Fons I actually know well. So this is a guy with a room full of those basses and possibly he even plays more of them at one time. Ok, he's good. And he could be the exception of playing those machines without operating a Jazz band.
Just saying : he has a down side, and this is that somehow his albums sound the same throughout for the nature of sound. You know that I claim that when this is so, something is not neutral. Well, this is an example of that and possibly this is why I don't like to play the albums much. And before I continue : this not-neutrality is still in there, so it is the means of recording or whatever.

All right.
So I played this one perhaps a year ago. And yesterday as the first of the session. Oh boy, what the heck happened to it;
This is quite impressive tuneful music and actually you'd say that nothing much can change about it. It's no ambient suddenly showing a 25Hz somewhere and it's no drums sounding better, so it's just a bass player but with some horn and other instruments we might never heave heard (of). Oh ?

WTF became of this ?? suddenly this bass (which is not a small instrument) sounds like a feather light instrument with the strings all floating in front of you. Suddenly I see that this guy could be the very best bass player on earth just because of the speed he is able to put in to ... yeah, whatever all was not there before. Those other instruments I just tried to mention ... I actually heard them all for the first time. Horns ? So many horns ?
Anyway, the bass turned from a stiff hard-pluckable instrument into a steering-powered so easy to play thing. Yes, that's the good description : so easy to play. It is so full of air and all, that you see the guy hop up and down including his instrument - he may even fly a meter or two. So that's where the feather-light comes from (in my perception).

It also suddenly becomes apparent that he merely plays the higher keys strings than the real low ones (btw out of 5);
Possibly I told about it just a few days back, but several years ago I pointed out that one day we should be able to perceive the vibration of cello-keyed instruments. And this now has become reality. So notice : It is far more difficult to let a higher frequency vibrate audibly than the lower ones (but the lower sure also has its challenges).
But this is no cello and things work out very differently (when played high-keyed). It zooms (like nylon) and does and, well, wow ?

What is also very apparent (mind you, all in relation to my former speakers - also not the worst) is that he plays the strings often merely like a guitar. Now some new fun :
It is not all that difficult to hear how a Spanish guitar receives a wipe of the hand over the 6 strings, which should be related to the way higher frequency. So with the upright bass I now feel that this is easily smeared because of the lower frequencies being close together (think octaves now). But sh****t, not so any more. It just brings a whole new dimension.

But really. This now happens after a month and all what it needed was playing it.
Of course I run into similar experiences each day. But I feel that expressing about it (like in the above) will be too much of a commercial endeavour. But it won't be since I am not.
And I can tell you, this post was 10 times easier to write because not forced. No thinking about anything. Just experience. Didn't check for typos as well.

Peter

http://www.amazon.com/Oriental-Bass-Renaud-Garcia-Fons/dp/B000005CD8

[manisandher]

Nice Peter. Thanks.

(I've ordered the CD in anticipation of my speakers.)

Mani.

[AlainGr]

I am enthusiastic for you Mani I sure would be frantic would I be able to get them !

These are the times where you first want to listen to them alone, then invite some friends to share

I am talking like when I was 15... Such a long time ago...

Alain

[christoffe]

we can see Garcia-Fons playing on


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eviXA0NtN0&list=PLcizG4wuCg6tpu1X8VKzl4qzOGceWp4eW&index=9

[Scroobius]

Peter,

Very interesting write ups on the Orelo and very interesting technically. Mouthwatering definitely. However, do not take this the wrong way but I am not going to get too carried away just yet - some convincing is needed and my ears (being the ultimate arbiter) are the only things that are going to do that.

I am very impressed with the design and originality and potentially I am anticipating that they could be the best sounding speakers. However, there are two problems that concern me. The first one is - well - it is "horns" in general and how my ears perceive them.

I have heard many horn setups (including Orphean) over the years and without exception what I hear is - well I hear a "horn". A very distinctive sound the horn has to my ears. Very impressive, very dynamic, very forward, very fast - but at the end of the day they always sound to me - well they sound like "horns". The other thing is that it always sounds like one is listening down the throat of the horn (not a nice perspective) and I have not yet heard anything like decent or natural imaging from a horn set up. So from what I have heard to date I am not sure I could live with horns. But I really do want to be proved wrong.

The other thing I find is that horns never sound quite right in that I always feel I need to get up and tweak - so maybe they are too just revealing of the source - in which case I have to assume you have sorted that because well I know you would have to!!!  Or maybe it is an inherent problem with horns. I just don't know and I shall wait to hear them before I make up my mind.

But now the biggest problem of all and that is the sound of the room. Now I know that the lack of a rear going wave is just total genius and is going to reduce some room interaction problems. But I also know for sure that the sound of any speaker is to a large extent going to be dominated by the sound of the room. Nick's room is one of the best examples (and by no means is his room going to be typical - no way!) but in the middle of Nick's listening room is a big stair case in a stair well - so there is a very high ceiling right in the middle of the room. The result is a very substantial lift in the upper base that does dominate the sound. It is inconceivable that any speaker could overcome that particular room problem. So whilst one could anticipate that Orelo's would sound very good in that situation one could also anticipate that there would be very significant "room" interaction problems. And I suspect that will be the case in other different room shapes (X-Fi?). That of course applies to all speakers but I for one would not invest such a large sum of money without knowing for sure that the speakers would work in my particular room. After all they are going to pump more bass energy (room excitation energy) into any room than any other speaker.

So it would be very interesting to get some feedback on what the Orelo's actually sound like in other more typical listening environments some "normal" rooms, if there is such a thing - after all your room is not typical at all.

How for example do they sound in Bert's room compared with yours? what other rooms have you listened to them in? and what steps have you had to take to get them to overcome room interaction problems.

Don't get me wrong but when a pair of speakers cost more than many would pay for a car I think these are relevant questions.

I really look forward to hearing them and I hope that they fulfill my expectations!!

Cheers

Paul

[manisandher]

I have heard many horn setups (including Orphean) over the years and without exception what I hear is - well I hear a "horn". A very distinctive sound the horn has to my ears. Very impressive, very dynamic, very forward, very fast - but at the end of the day they always sound to me - well they sound like "horns".

I had an interesting conversation with Gerd Sauermann when he was here a few weeks ago. He told me of a demo that he and a horn speaker manufacturers did in Germany a short while ago, with his amps and the horn speakers. Apparently, people initially complained about the horn speakers sounding "like horn speakers". But Gerd and the amp manufacturer had a trick up their sleeves. They stopped the music playback, brought some real instruments into the room and started playing them. Only after people's ears had become acclimatized to the real instruments did they start the music playback again. The response the second time was totally different, and massively positive. Apparently, they could play along with the music and people couldn't tell what was real and what was coming from the speakers.

My previous Swing horn speakers were flawed in many ways (you heard them, so you know), but one thing they did do was to introduce me to a different type of sound. For the first time I heard life-like transients from my system, and now that I've tasted this, I can't go back. But I have to say that it took me quite a while to acclimatize to the sound, flawed though it was.

Of course you'll get a chance to listen to the Orelos at my place. But I'd caution against making a quick judgment because I suspect they'll be so different from anything else we've ever heard from a replay system...

Mani.

[BertD]

I have heard many horn setups (including Orphean) over the years and without exception what I hear is - well I hear a "horn". A very distinctive sound the horn has to my ears. Very impressive, very dynamic, very forward, very fast - but at the end of the day they always sound to me - well they sound like "horns".

First I have to say is that since the Swing and related Orphean horns many things have changed...and as for your hearing concerns I do agree that you'll always hear it when a horn is playing simply because it is a very directive sound, the opposite of diffuse.

Another effect is a typical sound due to reflections (all sound is "forced" to go in one direction) but this effect goes away completely once you're getting used to them. I only hear it when I am back from Holidays. Otherwise my brain is filtering this out leaving only the clear, dynamic and effortlessness sound with super focus no other type of speaker can do equally well.

I am not sure what you hear/experience but spend a few days with a good and neutral horn (like the Orphean M3) and get used to that. If you then still not like the presentation then it is mostly the "in-your-face" feeling you do not like and then you'll need more distance from the speakers to reduce that effect.

Once living with a set of decent horn speakers and you'll never want anything else... 

Bert

[PeterSt]

Hey Paul,

Over night I have been thinking how to respond to this, but after now reading Bert's response I see that my answer would have been "as weak" so to speak. I mean, I some times very explicitly try to watch for horn sound, but I really can't do it. Still it would be true I think that when you hear it a first time it will be recognizable. Well, exactly what Bert said. But maybe I can add something to it :

Because I always have been "tweaking" my own Orphean, it is easy for me to recognize when the "horny" sound jumps in;
This is when horn instruments start to excel.

Got it ? So when a sax etc. is really going to sound more sax than normal, the horn plays the horn along with it and something is wrong.

When I read your post yesterday I had no other thing in my mind than you referring to my Orphean (when you visited us), but only now I see that you just as well can have been referring to Mani's Swing. Well, not knowing how you perceived the difference between the two, I can say upfront that the both are not comparable, but ALSO that it is incomparable to the "M3" as how Bert refers to it. And while Bert answers in general to the Orphean question (with that M3) in the end in here (this topic) we talk about the Orphean horn for the Orelino / Orelo MKII which yet is quite another beast. Base is M3 (filter version) but electronically all is different and part of this is the equalizing of the horn.

If you then still not like the presentation then it is mostly the "in-your-face" feeling you do not like and then you'll need more distance from the speakers to reduce that effect.

This is a little subject or Bert and me may disagree over somewhat, or it is the lack of experience of Bert. But we talked about it before, and it is not so easy to try for Bert;
What I'm talking about is that when all is set well, the "triangle" rule won't even apply any more. So, distance of the speakers vs. listening distance - those rules have quite vanished. Notice though that I am not much of a sweat spot listener, but some times I try;

So what I did here - quite 100% on purpose (Bert did it himself, haha) - is putting the speakers eve more apart than they already were. This is born from my idea that it just can work - or has to work in my view. Well, it never changed in a month of time.
Now, this seems unrelated, but it is not once you envision that even with this large distance, you can be crazily close by and perceive all the "picture" very OK. So really think like listening at 4 meters distance, while the speakers are 6 meters apart. Now do notice that this is the exact other way around as how Bert proposes it - further off.

It is way more complicated (and discussion worthy) if on- and off axis listening is incorporated. And while I listen off axis, Bert listens on-axis. But now think ...
When one wants to listen on-axis, how to ever achieve what I talked about above. So when on-axis, you actually just turn the speakers in your face at all times and only making the listening distance larger helps.

Still there ?

Then back to my elsewhere mentioned height of the speaker (Orelo MKII the top horn, Orelino not) so listening (from a seat) would always be off-axis automatically (but now under it instead of aside of it - no difference).

And yet still there ?
Then think of the Fletcher-Munson curves and what they do more than only following some principles;
The on-axis listening desire comes from the best possible way to perceive the highest frequencies (there is even more to this but never mind for now). This is because beamed straight to you they are caught the best (uhm, I hope you'll understand this). However, when stepping aside somewhat, all what happens is that the spread is more and therefore the energy less. So solution : Switch that "High" F-M switch higher.
So it really is a concept, with the notice that crazy Bert again just did what I thought was best, while he himself is not much able to try it out in his own room (too much Big Orelo speaker there ).

It is again more complicated when we look at how the toeing can be done. Nothing special or new, but sure different opinions count here. So the two extremes :
1. Toe out and let the sound reflect on the side walls (on purpose !);
2. Toe in ("overed") and let the sound not reflect the side walls of the speaker at that wall and hope the late reflections of the *other* wall are harmless and so better put curtains there.

#1 and #2 are totally different solutions obviously, and I adhere #1. So I challenge for the reflections (and no curtains) with the idea that now audible reflections are of proper / natural phase and just contribute in natural fashion.
Now, not claiming to be correct on this, this now *requires* off axis listening for this reason already. Or IOW, envisioning the smaller room and on-axis listening, you'd always be hitting the opposite wall(s) in a fashion that would come down to first time reflections but of wrong phase (see 45 degree angles hitting the walls).
Toeing out in a small room has the opposite effect forthe better, because now the first time reflections will be very little time delayed with phase effects I can't reason out well, but where a now 180 degree could be nicely compensating the time delay. Of course any mile will vary here (mm as well) but it would be better in control in my view, this way.

So Paul, having that all said, and hoping you're still with me ... now what about the control of 180 degree radiators ?
As how I see it there is no control at all and you are more than ever in the hands of your room.

Maybe some more later, but I'd say this is enough for now.
Peter

[PeterSt]

The other thing I find is that horns never sound quite right in that I always feel I need to get up and tweak - so maybe they are too just revealing of the source - in which case I have to assume you have sorted that because well I know you would have to!!!

Well Paul, though I like to respond to this, you actually said it all. And more;

The "more" is about the more revealing in the first place, which makes you hear better where yet to improve. And of course I am not talking about the horn now, but about the remainder of the system. Now you can call that a down side, but I sure do not ...

Btw Paul, I shouldn't put words in your mouth, but I can expect you to at this moment have the most experience with the Avant Garde's with my notice that they bite as hell to my ears. So horns are not horns and/but I can also expect you to be in a skind of struggle some times with the guy owning the AG's who thinks nothing is wrong with them (with only one reason being "he's used to them").

Also it is not to be underestimated what happens to a horn when not sufficient low frequency support is present. So NOW they come across as fast (and biting). But you can't try the difference because it is as it is.
An example of the other way around that hopefully speaks somewhat :
When I would tune-in a too heavy sub-low (so think under 35Hz or so - only there), what will come from it is background music. So the highs and freshness is snowed under by the heavy low end support. Remember, just under 35Hz where hardly anything plays and it's actually only ambient information you'll perceive.
And so I can of course also make that too lean and things start biting.

Moral : It needs this facility first to enable the real judging of a horn. So I don't think that when you switch off your woofers your mid-high begins to bite. Only lack of bass, that's it. But with a mid-high horn it does bite and this is only about the speed + directivity (just way more high output in your face).

Ok, I hope this is clear somewhat.
Peter

[PeterSt]

So Paul ...

But now the biggest problem of all and that is the sound of the room. Now I know that the lack of a rear going wave is just total genius and is going to reduce some room interaction problems. But I also know for sure that the sound of any speaker is to a large extent going to be dominated by the sound of the room. Nick's room is one of the best examples (and by no means is his room going to be typical - no way!) but in the middle of Nick's listening room is a big stair case in a stair well - so there is a very high ceiling right in the middle of the room. The result is a very substantial lift in the upper base that does dominate the sound. It is inconceivable that any speaker could overcome that particular room problem. So whilst one could anticipate that Orelo's would sound very good in that situation one could also anticipate that there would be very significant "room" interaction problems.

Of course I can't say that any random strange room will survive, but in my view the chance it won't is small.
Mere problem is : we always - ahead of everything else - think it is our room being the culprit, while really something else is. For fun, try Foobar again and see how undoubtedly your random response will be that now your room is causing troubles. Well, it does, but clearly something else was changed. Try it !

But otherwise I can only testify from my own situation (and Bert's) but what can you do with that. Ok, maybe ask Nick. I think we ran the lot through the lowest and loudest frequencies and if he now tells you that problems will all over the place, well, he's making up things. So he won't. But more interesting could be that "someone" explains how it is able to work. Nick could try it. I am just used to it.
Please never forget though that once at a time my rack was stacked with equalizers and room correction means and all, just because the very unchanged room needed it. But this was prior to XXHighEnd and more ...

So apparently Nick's room causes some troubles. So, accepted. But what we still don't get I think is that this is all caused by wrong bass. I am not saying that Nick's bass is specifically wrong, but what would happen along my same lines of theories is that the bass will be so distorted that no "tight" waves spring from it. So it is all about that and it is all about XXHighEnd attacks that and how the NOS1 attacks that further. And just saying : If I'd use the NOS1 on a Mac and Audirvana the whole room makes me duck away - that bad. Hey, same NOS1.
So along these lines of theory, any better bass - which means bass with more controlled output and which is less distorted is way way louder in the first place and causes less problems in the second. I myself reported about it somewhere when the Orelino was first in, and I really couldn't understand how the heck this was possible. It seems that at least my room can take infinite bass (and of the lowest frequency kind). There is so much headroom in this (I never ever reached a limit) that any playing at more moderate (but still loud) levels in a random other room will still be OK.

Of course there is one other parameter and this is the room length. So when too short you will run into the cancellation of the frequency that exactly fits that length, and there is nothing really to do about that. And *now* we suddenly run into the strange problem of the better the bass output (say the louder) the more this will be noticable.
Usually this is about distinct tones like a bass guitar sequence and one of the notes now drop out. Well, since even a bass guitar plays justified chords this is a matter of putting your head a few cm more forward and away is the problem for that one track. Another track may need a slightly different positiion.
In the end it won't be a problem if you keep your head still, and only when explicitly comparing things you will need to. Otherwise it's fairly tough to recognize something is really missing (but it depends on the music).
So I referred to Bert's room because that clearly happens at his place andd for myself this is no big deal at all. However, back to the start of this post :

It happened I think 20 times at least that Bert himself blamed his room for something in this area (of bass) not working out. But none of that 20 times it was the room because always afterwards it was proven that the cause was something else.
Bert knows, because we always make fun of it.
But moral : Even if you build fine speakers for a great deal of your life - even then you will blame the room just because normal theories depict that and the excuse is easy. So we normal users of those speakers will blame the room even earlier.
But I don't and it is my advice to force yourself into this same thinking; Only if you do that you may find the culprits. Otherwise you will be stuck with them forever.

Regards,
Peter

PS: What happened at the latest x-Fi was not bass related. The room sucking highs that was.

[BertD]

...while I listen off axis, Bert listens on-axis.

Correction, I don't (never do/did) and prefer to have the speakers crossing in front of me (my room) and when possible (not an option with my Orelo's) pointing them up 5-10 degrees as well to have all early reflections in another direction than to my ears.

Sitting in the so called triangle then gives a perfect picture of the recorded space as seen by the microphones. But this is a whole other discussion...

There is not just one single way to enjoy! 

Pointing them out works well too (I do not disagree) but only when the first direct reflections are not being directed directly to my ears which is the case when I toe them out here (my room is too small). And then still it is a matter of preference... some like it hot and others simple don't.

As a side note; I do have plenty experiences with horns and have heard the Orpheans and the other Oris horns in a lot of different spaces/environments... 

Bert

[PeterSt]

Correction, I don't (never do/did) and prefer to have the speakers crossing in front of me

Yes, you are right. But there's nuances in this too and I thought to leave them out, not thinking about your more detailed observation of my text. Now it's even more complicated ...
So if you disagree, just say so :

So yes, you cross in front of you for all your good reasons. However, the degree of that is still to be regarded on-axis just because it too much still is so. Now I actually need a picture to show that, but I don't have it really. But let's use this one :

This can be called off-axis with the notice it is only that really when you're out of the most direct beam of the tweeter. But focus on the grey part in the middle of the horn.
This picture is taken from the sweat spot I think (didn't take the photo just now). So now envision this same angle of beaming but now crossing in front of you.
This would not work and the speaker would need the 45 degree angle of toeing I talked about.

Notice that the distance is not important. It is about that 45 degrees which is too much.

Now for our fun I could ask Bert to put up a nice picture of his listening position to show that
a. this is not 45 degrees at all;
b. thus the beaming is more direct (read : way more on-axis).

If I am not correct on this then for sure the picture will show up soon.

Anyway, as you can all see there is more to it, because the degree of being off-axis obviously also counts and it is an analogue thing (stepless). Everybody will do this to his best ideas and empirical finding (listen) but once you want to be out of the beam as much as I do, there is no option to do that toed-in.
And of course, while I just said that the distance won't matter much, it practially does for sure because the more close you need to be (read : the shorter the room) the more this overdone angle starts to count and the worse it will get for those reflections on the other wall.
And so in my view - when you need to be too close to the speaker and the "in your face" would be a problem, it is not an option to toe in. Toe out yes.
In my view.

And of course everybody can do what he wants !
Peter

[Nick]

Interesting debate.

Personally I love horn presentation. I really value their ability to project sound into the room and generate lifelike dynamics. I'll put up with a lot of "issues" elsewhere to have these qualities. High efficency horns do put the upstream system under a magnifying glass howver and the slightest problem in source or amps is writ large in the sound. sometimes I think these problems are confused with the sound of the horns themselves. Get the front end and amp performing well and IMHO the experience can be magical.

I'm guessing that as the efficency of the horn increases the ability to expose source and amps also increases making it harder to obtain a sound without "problems" being exposed in unglorious fine detail, so a very hard job to get this right with a 118db/w speaker then.

This brings me on to Peter system and Orelo spekers. They are quite exceptional to listen to. The latest NOS1 spec, the active amps and Orelo speakers as a replay chain are spellbinding to listen to. I have to say that Peter makes some bold claims about this system here but having had the chance to listened to it I recognise in the sound all of what he is saying about the Orelos.

Whilst at Peters I listened to his son playing drums live in the house. Afterwards Peter played a recording he had made of the same drum kit back through the NOS1 and Orelos, you really could not tell the difference save for a slightly less pronounced kick in the chest from the kick drum, otherwise cymbals and drums were simply the same as the live drum kit  :-)

Its all about personal preferance I guess. I don't think I could be without horns of some type of horn speaker in my system, but a set of Orelos would be be something else !

Nick.

ps, Mani I have a case of speaker envy even before you have taken delivery of your set of Orelos haha.