In anticipation of my new Orelino speakers

[manisandher]

I should be taking delivery of my Orelino speakers within the next few months (Peter/Bert, let me know if this is not the case!). In anticipation of this, I'm looking at options for placement of the NOS1 and I'd love to hear any thoughts you might have as to the pros and cons of each option.

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Here are the three options I have:

Option 1:

Place in listening room in the centre between the speakers on a Townshend pneumatic stand. The listening room has the original Victorian suspended wooden floor (~120 years old), with no carpet or rug(s). Its dimensions are: 5.5m x 4.3m x 3.2m. The rear wall is covered with shelves that house ~3500 LPs (see pic below) - probably not the best for creating that 'flying seagull' sound in the room, as the LPs provide a certain amount of rear damping. Generally I think the room has nice acoustics. But of course, the NOS1 will be subject to some serious bass emanating from the Orelinos, with their 3x bass drivers per channel.

Pros:
- short ICs

Cons:
- long USB (5m)
- very little vibrational control

Option 2:

Place in basement, next to 'Le Monster' music PC. The basement isn't exactly below the listening room, but down and then across from it. When music plays, even with my currently very modest setup, the bass can easily be heard through a small opening in the brickwork through which passes a number of wires, including the USB cable. With the Orelinos, there may well still be quite a bit of LF getting through to the NOS1's circuitry inside.

Pros:
- much reduced vibrations from Orelinos
- shorter USB cable required (0.5m-2m)

Cons:
- longer ICs (realistically 6m long - would need to order a pair of balanced XLRs, presumably as well screened as possible)
- close to Le Monster, with who-knows-what EMI

Option 3:

In my LP digitization 'studio' (see pic below). This is a self-contained space, with sound insulation and a semi-faraday cage. It sits 3m away from where Le Monster currently sits. Even with the Orelinos playing 'enthusiastically', I doubt there would be anything getting through.

Pros:
- virtually no vibrations
- greatly reduced EMI (my mobile goes dead as soon as I enter)
- nice, clean environment (totally isolated, air filtered, humidity controlled)

Cons:
- long USB (3-5m)
- long ICs (8-10m) - I have a pair of 10m high quality double-shielded XLR microphone cables already

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Of course, I could (and perhaps should) just try all 3 options once the speakers are here and go for the one that sounds the best. But it'd really be useful to get all the necessary wiring, etc in place beforehand (depending on option, floorboards may need to be taken up, etc) , so I'd be happy to hear any 'theoretical' thoughts on the pros and cons if anyone has any.

Cheers, Mani

[PeterSt]

Hi Mani,

If I try to approach this "mathematically" then Option 2 falls out (a lot of fall out there anyway ).

Option 1 vs Option 3 both need an ~ as long USB cable. So that's out of the equation.
What's left is short IC for Option 1 and long IC for Option 2. Doable ? yes, but with the best IC only (just find yourself the lowest capacitance numbers on earth and see whether your microphone IC is not twice that).

So Cons for Option 3 now are out of the way, which leaves a Con for Option 1, the Vibration Control.
Thus Option 3 it shall be.

That was easy eh ?


Additional note :
Since your Orelino's will be fairly close to the wall behind them, you can also take into account that quite some warbling might be going on in between the speakers because of them being open baffle; don't ask me what that could do to your NOS1 when being there in the middle of the speakers but if anything it won't be for the better.

I hope this helped somewhat, but it wasn't anything special of course. What I did do though was taking the possible quality aspects out of the equation so we don't need to think about those any more. One thing though : I took the "vibration is bad in the listening room" for granted, and maybe that is not justified. This is up to you. But when not justified, Option 1 wins right away (with the further same "math").

Regards,
Peter

[juanpmar]

Hi Mani,

I think also that the best option is the 3 with the recommendations made by Peter. Then, once you have the Orelino, I would concentrate on the acoustics of the room so that the sound has adequate reflection and dispersion. Being a room specially prepared to work with sound sometimes the internal insulation of the room makes the reflection and dispersion of sound too lively or too deaf, however I understand that the isolation of this room (option 3) is done by creating a double chamber, so maybe the acoustics of your room is correct. Anyway, that's another issue to consider later.

...the best IC only (just find yourself the lowest capacitance numbers on earth and see whether your microphone IC is not twice that).
Peter

Peter, what is a low capacitance value? My RCA cable has a capacitance value of 50 pF/m, is it a good value for a IC to be connected to the NOS1?

Thanks,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Juan, by heart : That 50 is that very low (meaning : hard to find lower, or ?).

Peter

[PeterSt]

Re: Direct connection between NOS1 and power amplifier

[AlainGr]

That's what I was thinking about (the thread about my experiment with long XLR cables last year)... So with the Blue Jeans Cables XLR cables at about 14pF per foot, 36 feet would still be within the parameters that Peter indicates with the NOS1.

Alain

[Nick]

Option 1:

Place in listening room in the centre between the speakers on a Townshend pneumatic stand. The listening room has the original Victorian suspended wooden floor (~120 years old), with no carpet or rug(s). Its dimensions are: 5.5m x 4.3m x 3.2m. The rear wall is covered with shelves that house ~3500 LPs (see pic below) - probably not the best for creating that 'flying seagull' sound in the room, as the LPs provide a certain amount of rear damping. Generally I think the room has nice acoustics. But of course, the NOS1 will be subject to some serious bass emanating from the Orelinos, with their 3x bass drivers per channel.

Pros:
- short ICs

Cons:
- long USB (5m)
- very little vibrational control

Mani hi,

My hunch would be to go with option 1. The reasoning being that it can use short interconnects. I tried 15m usb cables and my hunch is that a long USB lead would be less disruptive to sound than 5m + interconnects. There would be a lot of dielectric length in the ICs to "shape" the sound and to manage EMI on such a long cable it will need to be shielded which might make keeping capacitance low difficult.

If it were me, I would also look to reduce the length of the USB cable by  moving your PC into your listening room. I think you were running fan-less iirc when we listened to your system so with a smaller PC case it would not be too disruptive to your listening room.

With the bass output of the Orelinos that Peter has described, if the NOS / PC were to move into your listening room I was thinking it might be useful to cut structural vibration from the suspended wooden floor by finding a way to put in a wall mounted shelf to use the mass of the house to isolated bass vibration for your NOS / PC. Similar to the set up on your studio turntable support.

That leaves airborne vibration which I think could still be a factor. But I think it may be that reduction of USB and IC length whilst using wall based platform to cut structural vibration might help address the factors that have the greatest impact on sound.

My set up here is reasonable close to what I'm suggesting above, although I don't have a wall attached platform my Townsend rack is placed on the concrete floor.

Which ever way you go it will be really interesting seeing what the relative influences and impacts are on sound quality.

EMI is certainly a factor but i suspect that it may be in key areas of the playback system. I got round to doing some planned targeted work on EMI reduction over the last couple of months and have had some absolutely superb results from it. I'll put a post up shortly about it (all applicable to you modified DAC).

Kind regards,

Nick.

[manisandher]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your thoughts. Not easy to decide without actually trying all three options. And indeed, that's exactly what I've decided I'll do. I'll wire in the necessary USB and XLR cables now and then play around with the NOS1's placement once the Orelinos are here. This may actually provide a definitive idea of what's most important: minimising vibrations, minimising the USB length or minimising the IC length.

Assumed that 50pF/meter is doable (to get), the total of 600pF can be driven by your NOS1.

It's been difficult getting the definitive capacitance figures for my Klotz M5 cables. One source suggests 70pF/m, another suggests 50pF/m. And there's nothing on the Klotz website as the cables are discontinued. But either way, these figures don't seem too bad for a double-shielded cable. Even if we take the the worse-case scenario, the NOS1 will be feeding a total of 700pF. Seems doable to me.

As I said, I'll get everything ready to be able to try all three options. I'm genuinely interested in which wins out, not just for my obvious benefit, but for the potential benefit of everyone.

Cheers, Mani.

[PeterSt]

Ok Mani. With that all set, shield that radiator on the cabinet's sides. Maybe your LPs last longer then.

Peter


PS: This is a kind of joke I wanted to make ride away when I saw the picture, assuming that for sure you have throught that over. Just curious though ...

[manisandher]

Ahhhh, but that radiator permanently is switched off. There is another radiator on the opposite side of the room near the window, but even that is usually off. This was never a problem when I had the Sauermann monos - the room would warm up nicely with them. Oh well, I'll just have to use the room's Victorian fireplace (which now runs on gas and not coal... fortunately).

But thanks for the warning...

Mani.

[Scroobius]

Hi Mani,

Personally I do not agree with your options that is not the way I would look at it. I would look at each of the "factors" as follows: -

1.  Interconnects are absolutely critical in my system. Short interconnects (of the right construction & materials) are totally essential here and I would not trade them off against anything - ever - no way. I have tried long high quality microphone cable for interconnects in the past and as a result they would not find a way into my system they would not be anywhere near good enough. I have done a lot of listening and my ears tell me that plastic (including PTFE) used in the construction of interconnects and speaker cable is a VERY BAD THING. So they are banished from my system. By the way from what I have heard the bad effect of plastic is not an LCR electrical thing at all it is something else.

2. USB cable In respect of USB cable length I use 3m normally (only because I do not happen to have a shorter cable). I have just tried (for you!!!) a 5m extension USB cable and connected that to my 3m cable making 8m in all. I am struggling to hear any difference (of course DEXA's may help a lot). Certainly if there is a difference it is something I might trade in for a big benefit elsewhere.

3. Vibration So that leaves vibration and this is where I struggle because I have not spent enough time testing vibration isolation (yet!!). As you know my NOS1 is mounted in a vibration reducing frame. The shelves are made of specially constructed balsa and they in turn are suspended on tensioned cords. How well does that work? I have no idea except that in the bad old days when I had a record deck the performance was absolutely transformed for the better using the balsa/cord arrangement. But for NOS1 is it good enough? - I just do not know.

4.  RFI again this is a difficult one but I have a sneaky feeling that what I intend to do with your NOS1 and your PC when I come up - well RFI may just possibly be less of an issue. But I would need to do much testing  - I cannot say for sure yet.

So what I am saying is that experimentation and testing is needed: -

a. first try to find out how much vibration isolation is a factor (so try the basement, the faraday cage and compare with the listening room all with long interconnects and long usb cables). It might be that your hydraulic support works well or if you want we could try my stand as well at the same time or even also try and floating water bath!!

Obviously if any of the above isolation techniques is effective (or good enough) then the answer is simple. But if isolation of the two supports is not good enough then the answer is also simple - find a method of isolation in the listening room that does work!!. That might not be possible but certainly I would try anything to find a solution to that. It is something that I intend to do in my system soon (when the weather permits) because I can try my NOS1 outside the house fairly easily with pretty much the same electrical interconnects. Watch this space. This is not possible just now as the River Thames is in my back garden just now & we are sitting here with crossed fingers.

Also I have not tested long interconnects of the construction I use it might be that they work well again I just not know until I try them (and I do not have the materials to build them just now). However, calculations I have seen elsewhere indicate that interconnect length is important and they should be kept as short as possible.

Of course that does not answer your question but I would not go for one option without testing. For me I would have to experiment to find out what to go for - and given how good I think your system is potentially going to sound with the Orelo's (or Orelino's I lose track) it is worth spending some time to get right.

Cheers

Paul

[manisandher]

It's been difficult getting the definitive capacitance figures for my Klotz M5 cables. One source suggests 70pF/m, another suggests 50pF/m. And there's nothing on the Klotz website as the cables are discontinued. But either way, these figures don't seem too bad for a double-shielded cable. Even if we take the the worse-case scenario, the NOS1 will be feeding a total of 700pF. Seems doable to me.

A quick update...

I was relaxing yesterday trying to get over some jet lag and decided to compare my 10m Klotz cables with some other balanced XLR cables I had lying around. Not entirely scientific, but I tried a couple of different ways of testing them:

1) single cable direct from NOS1 to power amp
2) 2 different cables connected in series, with one acting as a a 'reference' (the great advantage of XLR connectors)

1) Results:

Well, the 10m Klotz microphone cables are bloody good! I thought they had a beautifully balanced sound - not too LF heavy or too bright. There was a quality to them that I simply cannot define but that I really, really liked. Anyway, nothing annoying at all. Compared to all-but-one of my other 1m cables (some of which are seriously $$$), they had at least as much HF detail. So I'm not sure their capacitance is an issue at all.

There was one set of cables that did seem to have more detail - these were my XLR 'anti-cables'. But for the first time I noticed that these had an uneasy edge to them compared to many of the other cables.

2) Results:

Well this was interesting. Here was the process:
a) listen to 'reference' cable connected directly between NOS1 and amp
b) insert another cable in series with 'reference' and listen
c) any difference in sound between a) and b) must be attributable to the newly inserted cable NOT being totally transparent

In a nutshell, NONE of the cables I have are totally transparent. All of them changed the sound of whichever 'reference' cable was in. My most striking observation was that the 'anti-cables' changed the sound of the Klotz cables (when the latter were the 'reference') to a brighter sound. So, the 'anti-cables' are certainly not transparent. Of course, I tried this the other way too. And indeed, the Klotz cables changed the sound of the 'anti-cables' (when the latter were the 'reference') to a less bright sound... but the change was to a much lesser extent.

Anyway, if I had to choose just one pair of cables, it would be the Klotz. So, it seems my dilemma is sorted... for now.

Mani.

[Scroobius]

Hi Mani - what would be interesting is a comparison between a very short length and a long length of your favoured i/c.

But I guess that will not be easy to do!!

P

[manisandher]

... a comparison between a very short length and a long length of your favoured i/c.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I compared the 10m Klotz directly with a bunch of 1m ICs, including a pair of 1m 'anti-cables'. These direct comparisons are what I meant by method 1). And of course, these direct comparisons were with the NOS1 still in the room. Isolating it totally from the room (using the 10m Klotz cables) may well dwarf any differences I'm hearing between ICs.

Or do you mean <1m length??? I think the only really short XLRs I have are a pair of 0.5m Analysis Plus cables (I have both the copper and silver-over-copper versions). But even if I preferred the sound of really short ICs, the result would be moot as I'd still need to use a pair of ~2m ICs, even with the NOS1 bang in the middle of the room between the speakers.

But what I like about my method 2) is that it gives an idea of the exact affect a cable has on the sound. For example, I would have sworn that my anti-cables were the most transparent cables I had. But this proves not to be the case - they're actually adding a brightness that isn't there otherwise. I could not have identified this characteristic without method 2).

Anyway, I'm going to repeat 1) and 2) again in-depth... before I commit to pulling up any floorboards.

Mani.

[manisandher]

Tomorrow is going to be a sad day. Gerd Sauermann is coming over to collect the mono amps he lovingly built for me. I just don't need the Sauermann amps for the fully-active Orelinos. Otherwise there is no way I'd be selling them. I put Gerd's amps in the same league as the NOS1 sonically, and well ahead of anything I've ever owned in terms of build-quality.

Although I have no need of Gerd's products going forward, can I just give him a big plug? If I was using passive speakers, there is no other amp on the planet I would rather use than Gerd's. If you're in the market for an amp in the €8K-€10K range, please put Gerd's amps on your list of those to listen to. In Europe, it should be possible to get some sort of demo.

Mani.