Further Isolation of the Silverstone PCIe - USB Card

[PeterSt]

Hi Alain,

Not that I know of, athough it seems to derive from logic (of the posts). It *is* true though that in my situation the only thing which can be connected to PE is the PC, while that measures better. So can indeed is must - in my situation.

Regards,
Peter

[acg]

Anthony,

Remember this is with an isolated Silverstone card, which I did not like initially, but with further isolation from the PCIe bus the sound is sweet and delicate and dynamic and beautiful.  The "sssss's" sizzle and decay but don't bite.

I made a remark about this when you wrote this, but (sadly) I scratched it because I drifted off in that particular post (so the whole post wasn't posted). But my remark about this was :

The sizzle is a tough one to interpret;
For me it could be an indication (and I mean when I perceive that myself) that some higher frequency is riding on it all which make the S sizzle. Btw, same can happen with a nylon string although I'd call that "zzoooming";

In both cases (S and nylon string) this *is* a good characteristic and at least for the nylon string I will not be able to discern the better and the worse. To understand this, we better look at the sizzling S and try to see how much real that would be. I mean, try to produce that sizzle yourself; you will be able to do it, but it won't be easy (it's even hard to hear it yourself and another person needs to listen).
Now, when you have tried this and have seen how difficult it is, you can come to the conslusion that what you perceive from a random track with random singer with his/her random S that sizziling is not likely. Also, it needs "Z" to be incorporated which is why it hardly can be a natural S you're hearing.

This has been my perception for a longer time, but I must say that I never really "tuned" on it, because the sizzling seems to exhibit better resolution/resolvement and audibly it is not disturbing. Also, combine it with the nylon string which gets better from it (plus better discernable from the metal string) and you are fine. Still, when the chips are down like in these posts (about PE and such) I think it should be (?) a measure of the wrong. And of course it is placeboed in my mind because of no ground = no good.

It's only sad that I scratched this text at the time I wrote it which was way early in the topic because then I would have been predictive while now it seems in aftermath. But really not so.

Btw, I now wrote it after all bcause I tried to make a best choice of your table of happenings which I couldn't. So the best choice would be one which plops with your solution of not switching the lights but which right away also prooves that PE is used for signal ground. Notice that "signal ground" is of various types, only one of them real (music output) signal ground and you can see it by the DC Offset changing or not locking.

What I only start to recognize is how a PC itself can be the baddy in this all, because I can see that I myself can't get things wrong at this moment, while the whole (DC Offset) setup has been created with another PC which *did* have problems like not wanting to start. Not much useful for you all, but this same PC ended up elsewhere (not for music playback) and when it was powered down I had to ... detach USB devices (like a printer) before it ever wanted to boot.
I can also add the fairly unrelated (or not) happening that half a year or so ago, we were struck by direct lightning and everything survided expect that PC (main earth switch tripped). After that it never wanted to boot again and it was replaced.

Remember, it is only today that I am able to combine these things (or suggest they are related) and it can only happen from more "sightings" from guys like you, your experiments and your descriptions of it.
These things are mighty difficult and even while I'm focused on it, it apparantly takes years to nail it down. To some extend that is, but we won't stop experimenting.
Personally (but I don't see all) I think that the few forums posts in here - relative to say millions elsewhere - are so much more valuable than these millions of others.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Yes, I can imagine that “sizzle” means different things to different people, but I most definitely do not mean it in the way that you understand it.  I will give you an example.

I like trumpets:  they are a relatively simple instrument that is brash and raspy and difficult to play (no I don’t play one).  I also like drums because growing up my neighbour was a mad drummer and I would go over to hear him thrash out Van Halen or whatever was popular at the time (actually I did not have to go next door to listen to him play…hehehe).  The cymbals are what I remember from those days how they were just on the edge of being abrasive and how he would manipulate them with the stick or brush or hand or foot to change the sound.  So I think that I am reasonably sensitive to the sound of these instruments.

What the Silverstone card in its fully isolated form gives me is more of the realism of the drums, cymbal and trumpet.  For example, to my ears there is more change in the sound of the cymbal with each strike.  A more fleshy strike, a rapid change as the cymbal recovers from that strike to vibrate evenly and then decay.  What I hear in most systems is not so much of the fleshy strike, but plenty of the vibration when the cymbal has recovered and then a form of decay:  in other words more of a “one sound” rather than the more graduated sound that the Silverstone gives me.

Likewise with the trumpet.  A trumpet has rasp and a much varied tone depending on how it is blown, and the isolated Silverstone (both ends) gives that to me better than the PPAstudio card but the sound is still rough to my ears, too harsh (like there are higher frequencies involved), not entirely right.

What the loom does for me is take a lot of that noise or roughness away and gives better clarity, more separation between instruments (a blacker background if you like) and more resolution (read: more fleshy drums and raspy trumpets).  I have not mentioned voices in all this at all, but voices improve remarkably also.
 
Peter, I think that you are right with your observations about signal ground.  What I plan to do when I get some time is to re-solder some of the ground wires onto the PCIe riser cable (my loom) in an effort to reinstate that connection.  I have an idea that with my loom at the moment I have taken two steps forward and one step back.  Perhaps all that I need to do is get linear power to the card (or possibly to the clock itself) which would equate to two steps forward, and not sever the grounds entirely (my one step backwards).  The Silverstone needs to be resistant to my fluoro lights and if I am right the best sound may just coincide with this as well.
More to do.


Best Regards,


Anthony

[PeterSt]

Great description Anthony.
And your description about the cymbals makes me think that you really must try W7. W8 makes exactly that evolvement of the cymbal unbalanced.

Regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

As I (and some others) cannot hear any difference by isolating PCIe card and the USB at NOS1 - could that mean there is a more fundamental problem to be addressed in cases where it does make a difference?

Just a thought?

[PeterSt]

Maybe Paul. Who is that "some others" ?

[acg]

Hi Anthony,
Thanks for the loom description. I have the loom running now, but I prefer it with the (modified) Paul Pang card. Because with that card I like the (less) highs more and ALL details are there!
I have a second Silverstone and PP (in order) and will make a combination of the two.... See what that will bring.
And W7 is also really nice to hear again.....
Regards, Arjan

Hi Arjan,

Great that you got it working!!  Did you use a LPS for both 3.3V and 5V?  Did you have any problems with pops like I did?

Once again, I really appreciate that you gave this a go. 

Regards,

Anthony

[acg]

Great description Anthony.
And your description about the cymbals makes me think that you really must try W7. W8 makes exactly that evolvement of the cymbal unbalanced.

Regards,
Peter

I will give w7 a go and am sure there is a spare licence kicking around here somewhere.  I came to XXHE once you had sorted out w8 so have never listened to w7 and XXHE.

Anthony

[Arjan]

Hi Anthony,
I use a separate lps for the 3.3v and the 5v goes via picoPsu powered pc by another lps. So everything on linear power.
I do not have more pops then before, only my doorbell is (and was).
But plugging in another usb on the same card stops the music. So it is more tricky now. But it works fine!

You should try W7! W7 is more relaxing were W8 is more realism with some too agressive highs. But maybe better for another thread about W7 and W8.
Regards, Arjan

[Scroobius]

Maybe Paul. Who is that "some others" ?

Nick & I played around with isolating the USB card and USB plug at NOS1 about a year ago but as neither of us could hear significant differences we did not proceed. Nick felt he could hear small differences but nothing much. IIRC Todd mentioned that he did not hear any difference either.

Anyone else? if so please post.

Nick & I both have balanced supplies and dedicated earth so our PE's should be low noise. Obviously I cannot know if that is relevant but worth mentioning.

So at least 3 of us but maybe more that have not posted.

I shall be going to Mani's when he gets his Orelino's (soon???????????) so we can try a few checks then (he also has balanced supply).

I have mentioned before but worth mentioning again here that at one stage I tried something crazy with my earth arrangement. My amplifier case is not connected to anything it is only connected to PE (the PE at that time was connected to NOS1 and PC and balanced transformer then all back to earth spike in the garden). So I then connected the amplifier case direct to the earth spike in the garden. I also connected NOS1 case in the same way direct to the earth spike (of course NOS1 case is also not connected to anything except PE). So as far as possible a Star arrangement.

WOW what a difference the sorts of changes you have described for the PCIe isolation. I was very surprised at the time I was not really expecting any improvement. Of course I cannot know if that is relevant but also worth mentioning.

Paul

[acg]

Hi Paul,

I would be interested by what you actually tried about a year ago.  Did you try something like my loom that disengages the ground between the PCIe socket and USB card and allows cleaner power for the card itself?  Or did you do something else?

Regards,

Anthony

[Scroobius]

Hi Anthony - we isolated the USB shield at NOS1 (actually with some teflon tape) end also we isolated the PCIe ground at the PC (the bracket we covered in electric tape). That's as far as I went but Nick went further by isolating the earth on the backplane as well (IIRC). Obviously that was before we fitted Dexa clocks. Nicks feeling was that there were small changes in SQ but he found it difficult to decide if they were improvements or not and also (again IIRC) thought that the changes were inconsistent. So further investigation was dropped!

Neither of us tried the PCIe card on a riser cable with independent supplies.

The only other thing I tried (and I think Nick also) was to install a linear 5v regulated supply for the molex on the Paul Pang card but that sounded significantly worse (covered in detail in separate thread).

That's as far as we got.

Cheers

Paul

[CoenP]

Hi Anthony - we isolated the USB shield at NOS1 (actually with some teflon tape) end also we isolated the PCIe ground at the PC (the bracket we covered in electric tape). That's as far as I went but Nick went further by isolating the earth on the backplane as well (IIRC).

Hi Paul,

There is a difference with the 'USB ground disconnection' in the current discussion. This is about the isolation from the power supply (and chassis) by removing the connection of the black wire from the USB receptacle at the power supply's end.
In this situation, the USB cable's shield remains connected to the USB circuitry at both sides.

This might not matter to you at all, but I thought it worth noticing.

regards, Coen

[Scroobius]

Hi Coen,

removing the connection of the black wire from the USB receptacle at the power supply's end

Do you mean the black wire (or blue in my NOS1) that runs from the USB female socket shield in NOS1 to PE (via a screw to the case in the right leg power supply)?

If so yes I did remove that and again made no difference.

Paul

[Nick]

Hi,

Iv been following the thread but had decided not to say much, I'm not familiar with the silverstone card and although the stuff I tried (below) was not conclusive that's not to say that there were not changes to sound. I found results to be quite system dependant so I did not want to comment too much because as it seems likely that we may experience the effects differently depending on the rest of the system.

Neither of us tried the PCIe card on a riser cable with independent supplies.

The only other thing I tried (and I think Nick also) was to install a linear 5v regulated supply for the molex on the Paul Pang card but that sounded significantly worse (covered in detail in separate thread).

That's as far as we got.

IV destroyed a good may usb2 and 3 cards over the years trying similar things  Rather than use a pcie riser I traced the pins on the usb PCIe edge connector back to the bus pins and broken traces to inject power (LPS, batteries etc), disconnect PCIe earth and decouple cards from PC chassis earth, and DAC signal earth. Also tried clock mods and usb card component upgrades. Then there was galvanic isolation with the Anadco.  In the end it was thinking about results of experiments with the Anadco that lead back to experiments with usb clocks again.

Regards,
Nick.

[CoenP]

Hi Coen,

removing the connection of the black wire from the USB receptacle at the power supply's end

Do you mean the black wire (or blue in my NOS1) that runs from the USB female socket shield in NOS1 to PE (via a screw to the case in the right leg power supply)?

If so yes I did remove that and again made no difference.

Paul

Yes, as the only means of 'isolating' the USB. YMMV with these kind of tweaks. It all depends on (too) many other factors.

regards, Coen