USB to PC chassis ground ? (noise) - The biggest change ever !

[Leo]

Hi Peter,

no it was a little bit of teasing in return....
but I remember reading about this with turntables as the issue of preventing vibration feedback was taken very seriously by the vinyl brigade.

Now I am off to buy an inflatable pool to put all my audio gear in.
And in the mean time trying to find a way to confince my dearest and nearest that there is no (new) reason to call for the guys with the straightjacket .

[PeterSt]

Hey Rob !



Thank you for sharing.
Best regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Leo, we liggen hier kompleet in een deuk ...

[PeterSt]

But... Why not simplify this with big enough rubber bands to suspend the whole thing ? Talking about condoms recently, why not...

Alain

Have a look at what we drove past today.  My wife took some convincing but she finally took my iPad and grabbed this photo from the passenger window of the ute.

Anthony, our last year's vacation in Thailand/Bankok got us the pictures below. And guess what was for desert ? See last picture. Really so !

Peter

[AlainGr]

Peter,

Do you recommend W7 now ?

Alain

[PeterSt]

Alain, I don't know yet. Give me another week or so.
Peter

[manisandher]

Well, I was kind of on the right track with isolating the equipment from the floor resonance with an inner tube.

I've been using the original (i.e. with inner tubes) Townshend 'siesmic sink' isolation platforms and stands for years. Apparently, vibration is isolated from 2Hz up with attenuation at 20dB per octave. Not sure how that compares with Peter's contraption. There's still airborne vibration from the speakers to the DAC/amp chassis to contend with though, which is true in Peter's case too, I assume.

I currently have my PC sitting in the basement (not right under the listening room, but down and across). When the music is on, I can hardly hear it down there. I wonder if taking the NOS1 down there would make a difference. Haha, I could even stick the NOS1 in a Faraday cage I have down there, but the ICs would then have to be ~8m long. You know what, I'm tempted to try this...

Mani.

[phantomax]

Thinking  about Windows versions, XXHE versions and the last vibrations/isolation issues I have raised some doubts.
Despite I replaced my injured regular first team amplifier (Canary Audio with a burnt output trafo) with my quite old "bench's reserve" Electrocompaniet AW75, I have noticed a huge difference between the music coming from my headphones and the one coming from the speakers. Before there  was not so apparent, although  it always sounded better with headphones (I think the speakers are the bottleneck here). But with the last XXHE version the difference has increased a lot. I suspect my amplifier/speaker combo cannot cope well with the new W8/XXHE team while through headphones sounds better than ever.  So I have a divided heart.

Maxi

[PeterSt]

Maxi,

This is a very interesting remark which an I think controversial response :

No headphones will ever show what speakers can do. Meaning :
Never in my life I would listen through headphones to enjoy music. The physical vibes lack.

But this right away shows the controversity : I think those vibes (and room response) are needed, whike others might think that they disturb.

The whole thing will be about how inmensely more difficult it is for amps and speakers to create the sheer infinite higher SPL. Now, imagine that things get really pinpointed and high transient and such and that iherently this is for the better;
Your headphones may still be able to cope while amps and speakers can't anymore.

And so it is my thinking that this is a kind of proof that things went for the better again.
But maybe this is stupid proof. I just never heard anyone saying something like this, which means that these are my first thoughts about it ...

Best regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Hi Mani,

There's still airborne vibration from the speakers to the DAC/amp chassis to contend with though, which is true in Peter's case too, I assume.

Yes. But somewhere in the beginning of this sequence about the vibration I told that it also needs a "cover". I just did not apply that yet. In my thinking this cover can just be another box on top of the lot.

I wonder if taking the NOS1 down there would make a difference.

If you remember my own situation - it is all made for that. and I'd for 100% sure would put my turntable there might I use one.
But in my case I would go crazy from running up and down because I so many times need measuring and (thus) changing cables and such. So it will never be practicle.
This can, if I only make an official box for it, which will fit my cabinet (and it can). Also and as so often : I like everybody to be able to apply my tweaks or otherwise I think it's useless (to some extend).

Regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

I needed a PCIe USB3 card for another PC so I took the opportunity to get hold of a Silverstone. I removed the clock from the Silverstone and connected a Dexa coax. With two PCIe cards each hooked up with coax leads for the Dexa a quick swap was now possible for comparison purposes. So I could swap the cards almost in the time it takes to reboot.

The result I can hear no difference at all nothing, zippo, zilch not a sausage (probably that does not translate in to Dutch ha ha).

But it is possible to hear the very smallest of differences in this system (as both Nick and Mani will confirm) - if I move the PCIe Dexa clock just a few inches away from where it is mounted the sound clearly is not as good (presumably RFI affecting the clock).

So there a couple of interesting results: -

1. With Q5=1 if I move the PC Dexa clock to a worse location (i.e. more jitter) it is clearly audible.

2. With Dexa clock applied to a Silverstone I can hear no difference compared with a.n.other PCIe card.

Maybe this is not exhaustive but interesting none the less.

By the way removing the clock from the Silverstone card is a doddle (with 2 soldering irons) it would be my first choice card for applying a Dexa mod - much easier than the other cards I have looked at.

P

[AlainGr]

Something very interesting that Peter wrote in a recent communication... With Peter's approbation

Well, I recall a post about wheel suspension in oil vs. the spring in there needed along with it, so maybe you are referring to that ? But no single way I could take that as offending or anything. But point (still) is : you’d need to know what EXACTLY is going on, and your proposed solutions don’t provide that. And oh, mine may neither, but *then* it is only about using the inappropriate suspension material. But for example : silicon would not do it because it being too “stiff”. It will pass on the lower frequencies easily (not the high ones !).
Rubber band solution ? now the lower frequencies hammering ON to the device won’t be suspended in the device at all. It will (virtually) start to swing/bounce when the resonance is right (ferquency vs. possible moved mass). Not so when the device is suspended sufficiently and this is (in my “solution”) a combination of of upward force and moving mass (see your own “floating n the top” example wich also would not “work”).
If you take my given (forum) example here : http://www.vibratechtvd.com/innovation&technology.html of the crackshaft and how that for sure works, it is a. sort of proving that this thus works but b. tells totally nothing when the forces are not involved. And here (crackshaft) the forces are enourmous of course). And notice that these applications are applied under complete tower buildings ... (which also “proves” but again with (to me) unrelated forces.
 
What – on a side note – you may have missed is that this can be applied in neat format to make an ... aquarium. Just a cm or two larger than the NOS1, including a nice cover. No harm.
Still it must be in olive oil at least to make it not dangerous as such (is not indictive) and all I don’t know is how it will work out. So, water as such seemed a nice compromis to me for trialling because it will behave less “passing on” than olive oil up to concrete material (I mean like iron and such) which would not work at all. Investigate how sound waves travel to fluids vs concrete material and see how different that is ...
 
Even floating on air will not work because it will pass on at least LF waves directly. Why ? because of how much the air will be compressed. It goes towards “concrete” again. Only if the column of air is very large, then it can work.
Btw, you can only “see” how water works in my situation by means of pressing on the NOS1. Of course this is the other way around, but still not much difference. So, you will be able to press it but it needs a few Kg of pressure first before it starts to move. Moving mass that is ...
 
What remains for understandings are these :
- How enourmously these environmental forces impact on electronics (we all know that, but now combined with the below);
- How a floor at your best tip-toeing shows frequencies sky high in the ultra low frequencies (way under 20 Hz in my case);
- How ONLY a speaker I have here is influenced by that. How ? well, because it stupidly can show these lower frequencies.
Of course this is all related to my “Ambience” topic and how ambience can be way false because it is just my floor doing it. This, because of the LF the speaker exhibits in the first place which makes the floor move which influences at least the DAC (was my idea).
That in the mean time it theoreetically is so that just the higher frequencies influence electronics even more is ... well ... even more difficult because they will be hammering from “above” (on to the DAC) and now our precious footers come into play. They crazily “help”, right ? But how ? NOT because the DAC is detached from the floor because the HF’s don’t pring from there. So it must work the other way around : the HF’s let bounce the DAC on the backbouncing material (floor) and it isn’t damped. And the water does again ... It allows for pressing the DAC (in miniscule fashion of course) to let dive the DAC and the energy goes into the water (or footers !) while otherwise it would reflect the electronics (energy has to go somewhere and it stays in the internals).
 
Anyway ... I hope you now see that I see that there’s more to it, and that this solution can bring other things than existing ones which all work very differently.
Do notice that I “see” that a magnetic floating plate could bring the very same, but it would be far less tunable. But like with water, it could work anyway. But with magnets (holding the same poles opposite) you can “feel” what this needs. Air will never do this.
No matter what you exactly posted, I hope you can see that it will be hard to feel offended or anything unless you directly proove this is stupid and than *still* I would not be offended (why – a debunk could be useful). It would merely be the case that what you (all) write can be debunked fairly easily, like me asking for Leo’s solution which didn’t even exist. Understand ?
 
Best regards,
Peter
PS: You drive on elastic bands too : it may start to swing (which is bad for the drive) but it will lose it’svibrating energy in free air with the result of it sounding more silent. There’s no resonator anymore (like PC chassis or table). Same with speakers : they should be detached from the floor so their energy (of producing sound) won’t go into the floor as the huge resonator. This while half of the world will say that it is bad that the speaker catches its own “noise” from the floor and it will distort from that. But where does it begin ? right. The speaker itself. So for that reason it should be detached and the whole problem (from each direction) is solved. Still not, because the sound itself hammers upon the floor.
What did I say ? it is not so easy ?
:-)

[juanpmar]

After a few days away I returned home yesterday and connected the system to see what was going on with the famous isolated card. I put my favorite album, one that has voice and various instruments and after a few seconds I realized that the sound was great ... but the voice, that voice was not in the center, seemed rather to the left, maybe not, maybe the voice was back in some place or in all places at once, sh..t!, that´s what Peter said!, I thought. Well, as that seemed to be out of phase I changed the cables inputs in the amp to change the phase but all was the same. It was strange because the instruments seemed well placed, was the voice that was not located in any particular place. So, I decided to return the card to its normal situation by removing the insulation. Everything went back to its proper site. However the sound appeared to be a little harder, less sweet. I insist, the feeling is as if it was out of phase, although really is not.

At the same time the possibility of returning to W7 appears. It might sound better, do not know, when I did my testing I found that W8 was the best so far. What is the main reason to go back to W7? are we talking about to test W7 because we have the Silverstone card or do I missed something? Ok, I know that some people think that W7 sound better...

About isolation, I always use those iron discs on top of the NOS1 to avoid vibrations and some kind of rubber balls as legs. Peter, have you thought about the possibility to isolate the different plates of the NOS1 with some kind of absorbing material bonded to the inner side of the plates and even with some rubber tape in the junctions of the plates?. Anyway, it looks interesting that experiment with the carton but I think you have to upgrade the tool you use to fill the box with the viscous liquid. Throw away the watering can and watch this video. http://ecorptv.com/video/283/Instapak-900-Series

Best regards,
Juan

[AlainGr]

Peter is mentioning need of opening NOS1, doing something in there. I have not opened mine. What (USB thingie) can be isolated fm ground?

In the right leg there's the main PSU and (being in front of the NOS1) under the top right bolt of that PSU is a black wire; unscrew the bolt, detach the wire (it is not soldered), isolate it's bare end and ticj it through the sleeves at the right side or something (so you at least know where it's *not* going).
Notice : Not the best solution at all because it now may catch "noise" but do NOT detach it from the USB interface as of now because it is too fragile there; also, this is all trialling.

Remember, it is part of the isolation at the PC side, and part of the Silverstone setup and without anything else (like using W8) this will NOT work for the better. So let this wire be as it is for now.

Just in case I generate an explosion or place an order for a new NOS1 (in the case I really screw things up)...

There is this black wire, that starts from the DAC USB port, passes through the "H" and lands at the corner of a printed circuit, tied alone to a screw... Is it this I have to remove and isolate ?

Alain

[AlainGr]

Hi Juan,

I did not think about this... Increasing the mass of an object could affect its resonance ?

Alain