USB to PC chassis ground ? (noise) - The biggest change ever !

[juanpmar]

What I can confirm is that in my case that hum was much less loud than before the card was isolated.

All,

I hope it is clear that nobody says that you can get rid of hum or anything by means of this. It might (to some extend) like in Juan's situation, but no rules exist.
All is one stupid complex of the interconnected pile of things including what's on the mains itself, and for example when I received new amps the other day (coming with the speaker) I really had to dig again because of course it hummed.

Peter

I know Peter, I just wanted to clarify a little more what I was really hearing.

Juan

[PeterSt]

All,

I'm sure I didn't express any subjective qualities about this "tweak" (like how good it sounds), so just saying ...

So yesterday I tried to push through a boatload of normal music (not ambient sh*t which often really is about "test signals") and the story remains the same :

In my head inside out.

Does that sound right to you ? The in my head maybe, but the inside sure not (and no, I didn't try to invert Absolute Phase). But first a few characteristics or "happenings" I experienced :

Ok, how to tell your wife that you wet your pands. And that this happened from teardrops. Happened to me with Madonna's This used to me my Playground. Ok, nobody noticed it.
Point here is that I know this track so well, and now this happened. First this was about the voice combined with the sadness of the lyrics and the clear bells at the start of the track, but next I noticed that it was a mere technical thing that made me drip somewhat when the bass started. It was so tremendously good.

Thinking of Q sound and whether to play that Immaculate Collection, I choose Amused to Dead instead and played Three Wishes. This I must have played a 1000 times because it has been a test track. But didn't play it for two years at least. Teeeeering (that's Dutch), I'm just blasted away by the rolling very low frequency (manipulated) voice in the middle of the track. Think literally blasted backwards. Q sound worked well.

Then slowly it became apparent that voices go in your head instead of passing by (around) you. This must be the "intense" Ciska talked about. Already here maybe something goes odd. Not sure.

Next the Hammond of Jon Lord showed so clear what I have been hearing all the time the past two days as a real characteristic : Fast lower frequency on/off short sweeps from the one frequency to the other (like going from 200 to 400 Hz). So outside that I suddenly hear how a Hammond may really work, it is these things which I hear all the time, and each time this is brought to my attention as if it is an anomaly. It happens at the higher frequencies just the same. But I can't find a reason for it being a real anomaly, so what's actually unveiled ? Strange.

Put up a nice double bass (upright bass) and like with the Deep Purple I could not focus on anything. And this is where I can't cope much ...

Envision that double bass superbly projected in this case a 1 meter to the right of the left speaker (speakers are 6 meters apart). Doesn't move, all OK. Sound is quite at the high side (meaning, previously this was lower) and the height of the sound source seems too high (double bass is tall but not that tall). But if I try to get a picture of its width I just can't do it. So, try to see it is too wide and there is no answer. Too small ? sure not. Result -> is correct.
But it isn't, because I actually didn't get an answer. And THAT I can't bear.

I am going to be speculative now and probably I lack some university classes, but I feel that something is going on with the "inside out" and "in my head" and that all seems to be compressed into the size of my head (technically : distance between ears) and now no mapping can be made with the real distance of the sources which actually is the distance between the speakers.

It happened with everything. For example, my later expressions about ride cymbals were all so easy to dig out of the music, while the very same track does not allow it now. So, listen for that ride cymbal again like only two weeks ago, and I do hear it, but it is impossible to judge whether it is louder now or softer or better pinppointed or what. Same thing : no answer.
This can make you mad.

My very first idea in the very first seconds of listening (first post from yesterday) was a super heavily processed sound. Remember, I called it test signals. But it really is so. For that ambient type of music it seems impossible that someone set up tracks such, that they express like they now do while I am pretty 100% sure the artist never heard it himself. So how to set that up (in a synthesizer) ?

I am as far as thinking "the beginning of Windows 8 but now even 10 fold". So, think back about the strangenessess of Windows 8 as we all experienced a year ago, but now 10 times worse. The result ? can't even be judged. Great gag though. Something like that.

But still ...

If I again think about what happens to me when I try to judge that double bass, then as a very first there is just nothing wrong with it. Nothing. Especially when I thought about the man being in front of me, me in the first row BUT it is a theater and the man is on a 2m high podium ... why not and now the height (bass is too tall) is solved. Really so.
Additionally that bass has never been so precisely positioned in between the speakers.
Additional note on this : Such a bass can easily come from one apeaker only, never mind it is a bass (this is a main NOS1 characteristic). However, what I noticed so far is that when this happened that bass comes nicely from the left speaker which could be called a gag in itself (because seems impossible). So, that has been my experience so far. Now though, the thing positions somewhere in between the speaker, and the middle it is not (the middle would be the most easy and what a whole world will experience (no NOS1). And this so clear and rock steady position now is no gag anymore. It is a property which is new to me, and something in my brain tells me that this was (!) not happening and possibly I want it more to the left or otherwise in the middle. And I can't cope.

Proceeding ... Each and every time when I try to think about what is wrong, my brain gives me a right away answer "blending ! blending my boy !". And it feels like that. So when I try to focus on that bass I can't help that the sax is in the way. It blasts right through the bass. Still that sax plays in the right speaker (a bit to the left of it). So what's up ?
So next I try to envision the real podium in front of me and whether I could focus on the bass and not be disturbed by the sax. IOW could this be reality while a few days back it was far from ?

Much of this (text) will not be understood by most because I am a technical listener. So, dig out one element and judge it on its own. Like that bass example. Want to judge the sax ? well shift your focus and let's go. This is not what most people can do. They can only judge the music as a whole, be fairly subjective because of that (the content of the beauty of the music gets profound, the way the artist plays the violin makes you cry because the artist plays it so well etc.) ... while I focus on the reality of the resin etc. Just technical.

And that part has become impossible for me.
In the mean time it causes brain damage, because I *want* to or need to because I am used to that.

Oh, one more thing I explicitly noticed :
It has been a subject in between lines somewhat longer ago and I forgot the situation (most probably Windows 7 environment) but I can't see the plane anymore where the music plays. Notice that this will be similar if not exact the same as SPL being now equal everywhere (didn't measure yet) but if any Madonna sings she has a clear width/height position, but she sings at 8 meters (where the speakers are), 6 meters, 5,4,3,2,1 - in my head. So that thing again. So maybe the inside out is about that. Need to know the depth position, but braincomputer comes up with "INF" (general notation for infinity which is the same as math err).

Doh, this is crazy ... just went out to smoke a little (hey, cigar) and while outside I thought of another aspect I suddenly perceive now and wich I didn't hear since using horns. The crazy thing : I was thinking about that this happened with my previous "normal" speakers which were Infinity's R90. So, came back here to write about that and see in my last sentence "infinity". Ok, I'm crazy. Anyway :

I don't think anyone will have experienced such a thing and this is about "pumping". What do I mean ?
Envision an ellipse in front of you. It starts at your head on one end and the other end is at the speakers (say middle). Now the music (with a clear beat) makes you on the edges (the line) of the ellipse and you travel that ellipse on the beat of the music. So you travel to the speaker in upwards direction highest point half way, then travel down until at the speakers, and then back via the bottom line of the ellipse. And so on. It pumps. Very easy to create dopamine I'd say.
This now I have back, and I wonder how it could be related to a "sound everywhere" which would be fairly much the same with normal 180 degree radiating speakers.
Resembles the "blending" phenomenon as well.
When outside I was thinking about this because of that depth plane not being there. Still this implies depth (but the moving following the ellipse with be artificial and a brain thing).

Ok, must stop. If this is better it is for the ultimate better. If it is worse it is for the ultimate worse. At least I must get used to this sound, because it nowhere is how it was. And I need 5 days as usual to let pass all various music types.

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

About isolating the card ...

Heatshrink tube is not the solution - at least not when the bracket it to be put in the tube and then shrink it; the tube will be too thick (notice that shrinking thickens it) and the card/bracket won't fit anymore.

So someone got creative, cut a piece from a plastic bottle, cut it to mimic a bracket, heated/bended it to let it really look like a bracket, and there we are.

[juanpmar]

Good idea Peter. Although it is necessary to have some manual dexterity the result is aesthetically acceptable. Maybe the method I used, which requires not remove the bracket is more appropriate for the clumsy people, I think that if the insulator covers only the upper part of the bracket it is thin enough to allow the installation of the card. Even forcing it a bit I think I could use also the screw. Btw are we sure that the screw is not touching the case at all?

Juan

PS. It looks you have used lately the mower, take a look to that green dust under the fan (the grey dust is more familiar to me  )

[nik.d]

Here's another DIY photo story. PCIe is not Silverstone one, not available locally, will order sometime later. I have used masking tape, electrical tape and piece of isolated wire. PVC Cable Tie would be easier for tightening but had no 'thin' enough at hand. Inner side: piece of electrical tape, masking tape over it. Cut rectangle USB openings. Outer side: masking tape. Openings cut as shown in photo (whoever did wallpapers at home, knows what I'm trying to explain here )
Electrical + masking tape over pcb. All fixed by two pieces of isolated wire. Check all is OK (isolated) with DVM. Fits PC without problem.

[Eric]

Because I was inspired by the experiences published on this forum, I ordered a Silverstone card yesterday evening. Today I installed it, replacing another USB3 card, and I isolated it from PE. The installation, including the driver, took less than an hour or so.
From the first moment I played music, I was totally flabbergasted. Mind you, I am still on W7, but with XX 1.186a.

The sound is saturated, multidimensional and very precise.
Highly recommended!

Cheers
Eric 

[CoenP]

From the first moment I played music, I was totally flabbergasted. Mind you, I am still on W7, but with XX 1.186a.

The sound is saturated, multidimensional and very precise.
Highly recommended!

Eric,

Enjoy the music!

Imho no need to hurry with a switch to Win8. I'm slowly admitting to myself (again) that win8 (still) stinks on my system no matter with what it charmes me at first. But that conclusion is for another thread another time  .

regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

All,

After a few days of more listening, this is a sort of verdict :

No matter very interesting at times, I can't cope with this sound. It is too odd/strange and it is tiring. How I am not sure, but it could be too much "buzzing". At least that sense I get from it and I don't perceive real buzzing as such (as with standing (higher frequency) waves).

The two days ago this "measure" came about :

We had a party and 25 or so people were in the room. Of course I have some music playing, like always.
I found myself having more difficulties than with other such occasions at preselecting the music to play. Just trying to envision what would be background music. Not much came to me (with the indication that nothing is "background music" as such anymore).
Ok, music was playing for 2 hours or so, and a next album was selected (actually after an all over "and Peter, when are you going to put up some music ?!") and at the attempt to put up something recognizable for the peeps at the 5th track or so (playing fairly softly) I felt that that was not "it" either. So, walked to the PC and pressed stop, and then a sheer choir of 25 people all at the same time said

"Ohhh, what a relief ! Fi-nal-ly !".



So "intense" (as per Ciska's expression) ?
Way too much of it I'd say.

So yesterday we were talking about this after my explicit question to Ciska "and, is this now so wrong then ?". And this time music played which she knew well. First answer was "nooohh, don't think so", while we both knew we were seeking for what's wrong with it. But the "nooohh" sounded full of doubt and I again didn't know what to do with what I was perceiving from the speakers. And then - big surprise - this is what she said :

"Sounds like those sugar cubes".

Next I told her something like "see, when we take some time we all come to the same conclusion" and I told her that I already wrote it on the forum :

For those who experienced it (e.g. Paul), the sugar cubes in quadruple. No, more. And really, one of the first things which came to me is that it seemed that the SPL was equal everywhere in the room (sugar cubes did the same - I measured).

So this does it and it is final. The isolation will go off again.
Notice : I can't bear these sugar cubes as well. One difference : they make the sound less accurate, while I did not perceive that from the isolated card. But the exhibit is similar : processed sound. Way all over processed.


Peter

[PeterSt]

... But before the isolation goes off, I need to apply another tweak first. And that other tweak is actually consistent with the applied isolation ...

Peter

[AlainGr]

Has others experienced the same thing as Peter ? Juan reported that there was a lot less hum when isolated, but he did not mention what Peter is experiencing... Could it then be that what turns wrong for a PC-motherboard-USB cable,etc... Will turn ok for another ?

Alain

[juanpmar]

Has others experienced the same thing as Peter ? Juan reported that there was a lot less hum when isolated, but he did not mention what Peter is experiencing... Could it then be that what turns wrong for a PC-motherboard-USB cable,etc... Will turn ok for another ?

Alain

Hi Alain,

Yes, in my case I had less hum but I only could listen with the isolated Silverstone for a couple of days. What I remember was a fantastic sound, very enjoyable indeed. Peter was listening it for one week, I don´t know if being in the same situation would make me feel the same, if that´s the case it will be a small disappointment. I´ll let you know when I come back home and listen again for some more days. It could be also system dependent, as you say. Anyway, it seems that the experience is divided between those who perceived an improvement and those who not.

Regards,
Juan

[CoenP]

Now I think of it, maybe the card's isolation was the final nail in the win8 coffin for me (see a couple of posts back). That is that in my system it does not work out for the better with win8. The sound was very intense with a lack of tone colour (like a "black sound") and kind of strangely spacious. Didn't like the highs at all, no definition and very sharp. Also the narrowing and skewing to the right of the soundstage didn't help.

All can be partly because of the siverstone card and maybe the effect of unsynced usb reference clocks.

In my win7 setup card-isolation seems like a definive improvement, though time has to tell. Anyway it sounds rich and natural and very free from the loudspeakers. I heard a number of strings being played on vollenweiders harp that i never noticed before. Unfortunately a bit lacking on the musical side compared to my reference.

No sugarcubes though.

Regards, Coen

[Scroobius]

Peter - do you mean sugar cubes (i.e. the 1cm3 cubes that are typically stuck on the walls) http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem4/sugar_2.html  or the bigger versions of the same that currently sit under my NOS1 as "feet"?

As it happens I still have the three (bigger) cubes under my NOS1 only because I kind of forgot about them. I have not bothered to remove them because my NOS1 needs feet as I have that bolt head poking through the bottom of my NOS1 so I need feet.

I have to say with those feet in place and on W8 the sound here is really special (to my ears anyway) I have not recently been tempted to make any changes but maybe I should just remove them and see what happens.

Paul

[acg]

... But before the isolation goes off, I need to apply another tweak first. And that other tweak is actually consistent with the applied isolation ...

Peter

Hi Peter,

If this tweak is such a big change for you, perhaps it may be worthwhile trying to measure a difference in noise at the balanced outputs or I2S or USB shield just to attempt to learn about the change.  It certainly seems as though there is potential for the tweak to be permanent if we can find a way to balance its negative effects.  Such big  changes do not come along often. 

I have a feeling that further isolating the USB card from the PCIe socket may improve the situation, but that is speculation on my part.  Or perhaps try a LPS into the 5V molex.

Regards,

Anthony

[PeterSt]

Peter - do you mean sugar cubes (i.e. the 1cm3 cubes that are typically stuck on the walls) http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem4/sugar_2.html  or the bigger versions of the same that currently sit under my NOS1 as "feet"?

As it happens I still have the three (bigger) cubes under my NOS1 only because I kind of forgot about them.

Yes Paul. Those.
And they are mine.

Peter