A Visit to Nicks

[Scroobius]

Hi All,

I have just returned from Nick's. Thank you Nick for great hospitality yet again but especially to Claire for putting up with this "Hi Fi Nutter" taking over her husband for most of the day. Even more important thanks to Claire for the banana and date cake which is probably the best in the known Universe mmmm!!!

On this visit I took my NOS1 and the Paul Pang PCie modified PCie USB board.

For those who do not know - Nick and I have systems (at this time) that are very similar we have the same bridged - bi amped gain  clone amps (totally identical!) our NOS1's are modified but both are identical apart from Nick has replaced the USB 24Mhz USB clock in his NOS1 USB board with a higher quality low jitter VCXO version (see Nicks recent posts on this). My NOS1 currently has the standard clock as supplied. Nick's PC has a PCie USB3 card but Nick has replaced the clock with a low jitter VCXO - I have the Paul Pang low jitter PCie card.

So where to start? first of all I had to get my bearings so we installed my NOS1 and the Paul Pang PCie card in Nicks system. Nick has Avant Garde Duo speakers and mine are home made transmission lines. There is a big difference in the sound between the two but it is much to do with presentation (yin and yan I would say I will post separately on this subject).

For me we were now listening to the sound of my system but through Nick's speakers (no surprise there) OK a big difference in presentation but very recognisable. For Nick he felt that the Paul Pang PCie card really added something for the better clearer more natural sound.

So then we replaced the Paul Pang PCie card with Nick's modified PCie USB3 card (with low jitter clock etc) and the clear winner was the Paul Pang card which was clearly better in sound quality - less sibilance and "mush" on voices generally with a clearer and better delineated sound better tone. There was nothing subtle in the difference. And as Nick's modified card was better than a standard PCie USB3 card the Paul Pang card really was a big improvement. This was similar to my system. So we put the Paul Pang card back in for the rest of the session.

Then we swapped my NOS1 out and replaced it with Nick's NOS1 with low jitter USB3 clock. There was a *BIG BIG* improvement in sound quality that was obvious from the first note. Again it was an improvement in the same areas- reduced hash clearer cleaner sound. There was nothing subtle in this improvement it was a big step forward.

I shall be replacing the USB3 clock in my NOS1 as soon as I can with a high quality low jitter version.

It is always very difficult to comment sensibly without being able to measure what is going on but to my ears (and I think Nicks also) improving the USB3 clocks at the PC and NOS1 brings about probably the biggest single step improvements in sound quality that I have heard and it applies to both our systems (that is apart from Nick's change in mobo which really was fundamental).

More to come on speakers ...... watch this space.

Cheers

Paul

[Nick]

Paul hi,

Thanks it was a pleasure to spend the day with you and to have so much fun tying out components and listening to music.

We have been writing up impressions at the same time and I had written the following impressions of the day. Whilst sound generally was very enjoyable listening this evening I am a bit disappointed / embarrassed by the bass we were listening to for much for much of the day. I certainly agree that the Paul Pang USB card is a clear improvement on the diy clocked pcie card in the mid and highs (more analogue and smooth) but the bass with the Paul Pang card was not great compared to the rest of the sound. This as I mention below this effect likely to be specific to my system given the difficulties by Duo Subs have keeping up with the horns. Anyway these were my thoughts below.

A great day and some plots hatched for the next steps regarding clocks 

Is the Shunt supply in yet ? 

____________________

Paul came to visit today. Its great to spend the day in the company of such an enthusiast for music and how it is reproduced. He bought along his Paul Pang USB card and NOS1 which is close in modification level to mine other than the upgraded 24mhz USB interface clock I have fitted.

We decided the order to try things would be

1) start with Paul's NOS1 and the Paul Pang USB card to allow Paul to get oriented using his components in my system.
2) Swop to my NOS1 with upgraded 24mhz USB interface clock.
3) Finally put my modded USB PCIe card with diy 24mhz clock in to replace the Paul Pang clock (a little too late for a lot of comparison before Paul was due travel)

So what did all this sound like ?

1) Paul Pang card and Paul's upgraded NOS1 with standard 24mhz usb interface clock.

Sound was very very good particularly in the mids and highs, tone really strikingly good with overall an very smooth analogue presentation. It was a definite change to my system with the mids and highs different in a very good way. Playing a few tracks from my "difficult tracks list" the one thing we kept coming back to was the bass which was not working as well as the rest of the spectrum being more defuse less tuneful and with reduced percussion and drive. I have to say I did not realise that the bass had move backwards only realising this in configuration 3) later in the day.

The Paul Pang card really sounded VERY good partially in the mids and highs.

2) Next my NOS1 went back in with the upgraded 24mhz USB interface clock (there are a few other differences but they are not so significant that a comparison of the 24mhz usb interface clock could not be made).

Well there were quite a few grins with this change (and Paul plotting the fastest route to getting the clock into his NOS  ). Listening to the set up in 1) you would have really struggled to spot hash, digital artifices or where tone and presence and drive could be improved. However the clock upgrade in the NOS removed a whole layer, everything moved on a step, by now a beguiling sound except the bass which did improve a little but was still not up-to the standard of the mids and highs. This is how most of the day was spent listening.

3) Finally after lunch we had time to play just two quick tracks with DIY upgraded clock USB PCIe card in place. What came across in a couple of tracks with the card cold was interesting. There was some [EDIT] silence siblance in voices and tone and smoothness in the mids and highs was not quite as smooth as with the Paul Pang card. However the bass was restored becoming better defined and much more tuneful. Unfortunately Paul needed to travel so we did not get to listen to more than the two tracks together. Later in the afternoon with the modded clock USB PCIe card warmed back up the sibilance has gone and the mids and highs really improved much closer to the Paul Pang card, drive from the low frequencies and their definition and tunefulness however is much better bass speed is more in line with the horns transducers.

So my thoughts.

The Paul Pang USB card has a really smooth and analogue presentation with beautiful tone. In my system bass does suffer a lot however. This could easily be specific to my system because my Avantguard Duo subwoofers are not "fast" and need a VERY well controlled signal to make even goodish bass.

My USB PCIe card with upgraded clock does not have quite the same smoothness and tone of the Paul Pang card but bass in my system is completely different, scale and musical drive are better for this (this is a personal opinion as this was only apparent later in the day when the card settled in).

Finally the upgraded 24mhz NOS USB interface clock touches EVERY aspect of the music in a very positive fashion, hash reduces, tone, dynamics, extension, smoothness and presence all take a large step forwards. So the 24mhz clock upgrade in the NOS somewhat of a "no brainier". 

Overall a great day in Paul's company with some really interesting products and modifications to try out.

Regards,

Nick.
 

[acg]

Thanks for the excellent report guys.

I notice that Coen has reported a similar thing regarding the bass in the "Bert Must Have" thread...

The card deliveres a smooth subtle kind of sound where all sharpness has been tweaked out. The tone can be described as natural with lots of details. However, the low end is unfortunately completely gone as is the impact of the fundamentals, leaving the sound robbed of dynamics and musical momentum. Also I've noticed "strangeness" for lack of an adequate description in echoes and instrument decay. Note that most listening was with win7.

I don't know what is going on with this bass issue, or why it could possibly be happening, but it is certainly not what I am hearing in my system.  Interestingly, yesterday I took my XXHE PC and NOS1 down to an amplifier get-together at Lenehan Audio on the Gold Coast.  Basically, my source direct drove about a dozen amplifiers yesterday through these magnificent speakers that Mike Lenehan builds (the ML2 Limiteds).  The amps represented Classes A, AB and D and ranged in price from $600 diy Honey Badger to $35,000 Gryphon Antilion Signature.  The only valve amp present was a beautiful heavily modified Leak 12w valve amp.  The Phasure drove all of these amps beautifully and with a similar bass response...apart from the Leak.  Now a 12w valve amp is never going to have the bass of 150w pure Class A or 500w Class D into 86dB speaker playing Daft Punk, and the general consensus of those present was that the fundamental was largely missing with the Leak but we were hearing the harmonics...so I have a good idea of a missing fundamentals in the bass region sounds like (or doesn't sound like).  All this was with the PPAstudio USB card V1. 

My version of the USB cannot be purchased anymore, it is too difficult to build apparently and the V2 card is considered a lesser version.  I happen to have a V2 card with me at the moment (brand-new...not run in) but I will have a look at them together and see what differences I can spot as a layman.

I am really keen to hear for myself the NOS1 USB card upgrade, so I might just see if I can do something on this side of the world.

Cheers,

Anthony

[CoenP]

Hi all,

Thanks for the reports!

As Anthony allready posted, I have the feeling that Nick and Paul have been hearing a similar effect in the bass with the ppa v2 card as I did. It would be very interesting to compare the two cards. I wonder what would be so complicated about the v1 card. They are using the same clockboard if I'm correct...


Though the PC is a relatively easy place to tweak, the NOS1 usb clock mod is expectedly the most important for sq. I hope Peter will have a report on that (NOS2?!). 
Nick I was wondering: how do you power the NOS1 clock?

Regards, Coen

[Scroobius]

Just a further note about the bass heard in Nicks system. Nick and I agreed on just about everything we heard but I had a slightly different perspective regarding bass with the Paul Pang card. It certainly was very different with the Paul Pang card but for me it was very difficult to determine if it was better or worse. The main reason is that the bass in my system is very different to Nicks and it was difficult for me to establish a reference of how the bass should sound. It is a shame we do not live closer because it would be interesting to hear Nick's modified card in my system. Short of doing that I shall try my old standard PCie card versus the Paul Pang card later this morning.

[PeterSt]

Guys, my 2c contribution :

I don't think it is all so easy to determine the performance of anything without knowing the absolute "reference settings", might they exist in the first place. I am referring to XXHighEnd settings now ...

I won't confusingly eleborate in this topic about it, but just think about my recent "attach a USB disk" tweak and how I suddenly find SFS=4 to be wrong. Yea, that's vague but maybe it is meant to be; All I'm saying is that you can't exchange a crucially influencing part and never look at the other stuff (XXHE Settings), just because when you *do* look at the other stuff, you can get there again. So, both situations imply their own unique best settings and only those should be compared.

And don't you ever think you can do it on one Saturday.

Whatever was observed can still be correct of course. But I'd say it will be merely a coincidence then.


Anthony, same might have worked for the Leak. Not sure, but over here and by now I am so confused about which actually causes what that I feel having entered a new dimension and I don't know which string to pull to exactly influence what. My new dimension is feeling the woofers which includes total freedom of their movement (open baffle) and what we might not hear right away can be felt for 100% sure.

Vague me.
(will post a link to what I'm talking about once I created a post about it. )

[acg]

Guys, here are some photos I have just taken of the V1 and V2 cards.  I will post them first and then possibly we can talk about them later.

Anthony

[Scroobius]

Peter - I totally agree with you it generally takes me about a week of much listening to determine the real merits or not of a change.

But in respect of clocks on the USB interface I would have to say that improved clocks is a total no brainer regardless of XX settings (to these ears at least) - the reduction in glare and hash is immediately obvious OK extended listening is always needed but I just cannot believe that I would ever change my mind on that particular one (but hey I have been wrong before). Of course noise profile is all - and each system potentially is different so I can only comment on what I hear in my system and in Nicks.

But there again I remember installing the PCie card with the banks of capacitors and that made a big improvement only to be totally negated when you changed XX for W8 mmmm.

Your mention of XX settings is very relevant. Since moving to W8 XX settings became much less important in my system. In my system with the Paul Pang clock in place XX settings now have a bigger effect. Also at Nicks yesterday with improved USB clocks XX settings become much more important. Nick was able to "tune" the sound of the system using XX settings.

 

 

[acg]

Anthony, same might have worked for the Leak. Not sure, but over here and by now I am so confused about which actually causes what that I feel having entered a new dimension and I don't know which string to pull to exactly influence what. My new dimension is feeling the woofers which includes total freedom of their movement (open baffle) and what we might not hear right away can be felt for 100% sure.

Vague me.
(will post a link to what I'm talking about once I created a post about it. )

Ha...that was me last night after listening to all those amps in one day...not really sure what was going on but I had all these seemingly random impressions.

Anthony

[PeterSt]

(will post a link to what I'm talking about once I created a post about it. )

Here : Re: Add some noise ( Windows 8 )

[PeterSt]

not really sure what was going on but I had all these seemingly random impressions.

Anthony, just let me tell you ...
In the sequence of my "adding noise" experience I had been listening to three days to that and was quite satisfied. Until I played a particular "test track" at the fourth day and this showed so much colouring that right away all could be thrown out of the window. And I mean, that bad.
If I saw it right you out there used 3 tracks all together. Maybe (very maybe) if you knew what you were looking for - and which may take years of experience to begin with - it could have been done with three tracks. But this is not how it happened and none of what I saw would show a thing. And to give expecially you the example : any random Weiss would have done well on them. But if I'd throw my (learned) special tracks to them they would shoke (heavy distortion).
Same will count for amps, but again, you need to know what you are looking for. Super bass (sub low) tracks for example - and then we did not count in the speaker.

This is all too difficult to do you know, and all I see from your (all) expressions about the GTG is that at least you were the most confused. Why ? because actually with all something was not right. Bet ?

haha
Peter

[acg]

Hi Peter, I agree that nothing conclusive can come from a handful of tracks and two handfuls of amps in a day...but you can get in the ballpark and have a good idea of the ones to audition for a while.

For instance, I know that there were four amps in that room that I could live with long term, all for different reasons and different qualities...but you see I had a significant advantage to many of the others at the GTG in that I was already intimately familiar with four of those amps having recently had them loaned to me since I have had the Phasure on its current settings (I've not change them for months) plus I have listened the Gryphon with my NOS1 and those same speakers (and same XXHE settings) previously.  Guys from the GTG have also loaned me two of the contenders that I liked but had not heard in my system before...I'm playing one of them right now, so all up I will have had 6 high quality amplifiers from that GTG through my system on extended timeframe without having altered the settings in XXHE.  There were even a couple of other amplifiers on extended loan before I added the RAMdisks to XXHE, but I have not changed any other XXHE settings for quite some time, and have no desire to because they are giving me good sound over a decent range of amplification. 

I don't see how I can chase down noise if I am always altering the software settings...surely as you demonstrated in the other thread (that you linked to earlier tonight) you have found a way to use XXHE to provide the same effect as having your USB3 drive plugged in.  If you can do that I think that a good approach to noise is to minimise it everywhere that we think reasonable and then change the XXHE settings to cover up any of the noise that annoys us.  That's one of the real strengths of the software in my eyes.

This is all too difficult to do you know, and all I see from your (all) expressions about the GTG is that at least you were the most confused. Why ? because actually with all something was not right. Bet ?

I was overwhelmed with possibility by the end of the GTG, not so much confused.  I have never been in a room of people that all had the same opinion of something simple let alone something more difficult like making a judgement of audio reproduction.

Cheers,

Anthony

[PeterSt]

But in respect of clocks on the USB interface I would have to say that improved clocks is a total no brainer regardless of XX settings (to these ears at least) - the reduction in glare and hash is immediately obvious OK extended listening is always needed but I just cannot believe that I would ever change my mind on that particular one (but hey I have been wrong before). Of course noise profile is all - and each system potentially is different so I can only comment on what I hear in my system and in Nicks.

Paul,

Just to be clear that you got my message about this right :

I know you guys are used to me "objecting" about SQ improvements, but I only do so when I feel it is necessary or to place it in some context at least. Here (and you may have misunderstood ?) I for once acted the other way around :
Possibly the taking more time on XXHighEnd settings could have improved the bass response on Nick's Avant Garde's.
(maybe Nick ended his day with just doing that)

For me the trigger to say such a thing in the first place was Nick's remark on his woofers not being gentle about this - as he knows it. I combined it (but did not say that) with my own experience by now that once the woofers are driven into some mode they are not tuned for, things can go wrong ... but what and who to blame. And as you have read by now, I could again solve it by XXHighEnd settings. So that is why.
Can count the same for Coen, unless the PP card just *is* not the best and you can never get there.

Let's all remember once again that when at least I myself am able to find settings which undo a complete (and I mean total) wrong situation by means of stupid sub-micro software influences, *anything* at the hardware level should weight in a 1000 times more. Although the "1000 times" of course is my interpretation based upon nothing, I (no we !) can still undo wrongnesses with software influence. But it take so many guts to even start thinking about trying such route that it is only for the few to start trying that for real.

All 'n all Nick's remark about his woofers made the most sense to me out of everything else. But don't you think that would have been the case, say 4 weeks ago. And maybe Nick now comes up with it because of me putting some emphasis on that area. This is all quite new you know ...
And to be hopefully clear : Once something allows for the more bass output, it most probably works out lesser because of more distortion implied (and that is because of more excursion happening); I now can see that the most easily myself, excursion going from 1mm areas to 5mm. Is that better ? I can not tell because 5mm is too much here and THD will rise significantly and colouring is my share.

So you see ? at having that other dimension at hand (only known to me for the past couple of weeks) it has become progressively more complicated; something which looks to be the better bass works out for the worse definitely. The latter is true, the former I can't tell because of the latter.


Peter

[Nick]

Peter hi,

I understand the concern about "conclusions" formed in a day. The information coming from this sort of session is difficult to use if there is not a sensible method used to assess any changes to the system and even then longer term listening is needed to verify initial impressions.

Listening to the change in sound is fun and fascinating but the real value of the day for me is not making absolute judgement on what sounds "best" (we found strengths and weaknesses in the USB cards), the value is in trying to reason out why the differences might have been heard and what could be changed to get combine the best points of both components. My guess is that the change in bass performance between the USB cards is clock related (PSU noise in the near DC range ??) an might not be experienced by Paul with the Paul Pang card in his PC which is different to Mine. There has been a lot of discussion already about this and next steps are being planned 

I little more information about the testing may help. Only two things were changed the USB card type and for Pauls benefit the NOS 24 MHz clock. Otherwise Iv been playing with the set up used for a month or more.

For the last 3 or 4 weeks with the new NOS USB 24mhz clock in place and other mods I'v been slowly experimenting with XX settings, they are absolutely key to "voicing" the sound now. It's easy to create different sound presentations all of which I would have considered very very good before, but now more than before its possible to concentrate on what a "real" presentation should sound like and carefully tune towards that.

Yesterday Paul and I stuck to my current XX settings throughout the day so that the differences in the hardware setups could be assessed. they work well with my PC, NEC USB chipsets and the modded NOS. The two software variables that were used were pressing the XTweaks "refresh" button before playing or not and a change to the NOS 1 buffer from 12ms to 8ms for a couple of tracks only to let Paul hear the very marked sweetening the highs that this bought about at the expense of a small amount of drive I the music.

Just for reference the XX settings Iv arrived at so far are.
SFS 60
Q1 25
Xq1 3
System Clock 1ms
Phasure Buffer 12ms
Balanced processor 65
Nervousness 100

Hopefully this gives a better sense of what was done. It is a shame that physical distance gets in the way of what we are doing here. Visits to listen to other members systems for me have been the most helpful thing in sorting out my system and maintaining my bearings when thinking what to do next and working out if changes work. Perhaps the distance across the North Sea is not so far to travel when we think about

Best regards,

Nick.

[PeterSt]

Thank you for that feedback Nick. And Paul just the same of course.

Our North Sea is for some the Atlantic or worse. Meaning : Only with all of our feedback we can get somewhere. Maybe it is not always the most efficient, but buying airplane tickets each other week for sure is not the way to go either.

Again, thank you (both),
Peter