Investigating a full linear PSU for the XXHE PC and NOS1

[acg]

Hi Peter,

I have not seen anything like that but when I was measuring the draw of the entire pc my accuracy was only about 10w.  When measuring the individual components the accuracy was much better and equal to the accuracy of the multimeter. 

Some of the individual components did seem to have non-rhythmic power usage, but my thought is that perhaps the culprit may be something like the fan controllers.  Maybe try to run the fans from another power source and disconnected from motherboard monitoring and control, just to see what happens.  That is the most immediate thing that I can think of that might have sporadic use of resources and low power draw.

Anthony

[PeterSt]

Anthony,

I just wanted to share this in this topic of the PSU : Something more to shut off ... USB3.

It may be prior to your ages at our forum here, but notice that USB2 can be shut off in your XXHighEnd PC. And today I went one step further and did the same for USB3.

The net result on the total draw is something like 2-2.5 Wats less.
So notice that I first added the PCIe card which will draw something (I forgot to look) and that next USB2 was shut off. This makes this difference. After shutting off USB3 I saw no further decrease in usage. Not sure why.

Idle usage is 48.5 Watts now (MinOS) but I see similar in Normal OS ?? (Windows 8.1 !)
Playback (MinOS) goes from 49.0W to 55.0W which difference feels more than it was (was 3.5W or so, now 6W). This too could be W8.1 related and I dedicate the difference itself to SFS loads and not to USB usage (looking at the slow frequency of the usage difference).

It is a bit tricky to observe right, because in native W8 the idle usage was 50W while with W8.1 this is 51.5 - 52 (so now decreased to 48.5).

Only thing in there is one 2.5" spinning disk and otherwise the NOS1 is connected and a LAN cable (software wise shut off during playback).

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Variation without the card during playback is 3W. But it really needs waiting for the lowest and highest ends to get that. Looking "normally" for 10 secs or so (well capturing the SFS loads) it's only 2.5W.

Peter

[PeterSt]

FWIW by now (because I don't like W8.1 at all) :

W8.1 stops right away after shut down.
(remember, Native W8 may take over 20 seconds for this after the screen goes black)

Peter

[acg]

Thanks Peter,

The atx power solution I have been working on should manage the shutdown process properly by intercommunication between the power supply and the mobo.  I say should, because I don't have a working prototype just yet...

Anthony

[PeterSt]

Hi,

This is just to share something I noticed and I think not of importance anywhere, at least not related to the XXHighEnd PC and a Linear Power Supply :

So, my XXHighEnd PC goes through the "power meter" and I learnt to observe it very frequently, just to see and learn how what I see is or can be related to SQ. Fine;

Yesterday we had to prepare a 115V NOS1 and we connect that through a 230 -> 115V transformer. This transformer is connected to a normal house ring to which ring I may connect switching supply bricks and more sh*t spitting devices related to the audio stuff (could be USB3 disk etc.).
Normally all the normal audio gear is connected to the separete(ly earthed) audio ring and this comprises of PC, NOS1 and amps. Only the PC is connected to earth (PE).

So the change with this 115V NOS1 is that it is actually connected to the normal house ring (through that transformer) while normally it is on the audio ring.

PC is connected as always, like 230V-AudioRing -> Power Meter -> PC.

And in this situation the power meter goes bananas;
It more often shows something like 0.5W and 2W or even 0W than the normal reading which would be around 50W.

I have no idea what this means and to what degree the "power" may be supplied through illegal (groundloop) means or whether possibly the meter is suddenly unreliable because of ... ??

It looks a bit similar to my previous report about the meter being able to show a way low usage (which I think was with Windows 8.1) but this was hard to catch. Now, it almost continuously shows this low usage and clearly (?) it must be related to that tranformer in the chain or using that other ring together with the audio ring.

That no two rings with separate PE should be used was already clear to me (protential difference implied between the two earths) but this seems to show more "nasty" behavior, up to "illegal".

As I said, just to share.
Peter

[acg]

Hi All,

I just thought that I would add an update to let you know where things are up to with the Linear ATX Power Supply.

Several options for assistance with the development of this project have been considered and weighed, from using an amalgamation of off-the-shelf power supplies to lots of help from afar from Peter and many things in between.  As Peter has realised from our email correspondence, not only do I like to do things right but I like to get them right the first time and I also tend to err on the side of overkill as well.  I will happily spend extra time to make sure that I get things right first time rather than rush the project.  So with that in mind I have enlisted the help of a friend that is an Electrical Engineer with a rabid passion for audio, especially the diy variety, who has his head screwed on and is not prone to fads and audio mysticism.  In effect I am the ideas man and my 'partner' in this is the brains that will get it working properly.

We have corresponded a lot so far on this project, often several times a day with ideas and ways to get past certain limitations but have come up a basic plan.  Design has started on the PCB's for this project and good progress is being made.  All in all this equates to an awful lot of time and effort but hopefully at the end of it there is a power supply that improves PC audio.

The basic idea as it stands right now, it to have a primary PCB for the 24 Pin ATX socket of the motherboard.  This will have three rails (12V/5V/3.3V) and will also include all of the logic for proper computer startup and shutdown.  This PCB will also be able to control up to five satellite power supplies that may be used in other parts of the computer i.e. P8 CPU and SSD/HDD and USB3 card and optical drive et cetera.  In the end, the computer will turn on and off the exact same way that it does now, but there will be a very high quality, reasonably modular, and reasonably intelligent linear power supply. 

We are going with largely SMD components in an effort to keep the size down but at this stage it is unknown whether we can get this to all fit inside the XXHE PC.  It looks pretty close to me.  Fingers crossed.   


Cheers,

Anthony

[juanpmar]

Hi Anthony,

I read some time ago from you that this is going to be a DIY project, is it correct?.

I hope you have success in the end and we can all benefit from this power supply. Anyway from here I congratulate you for your effort and I encourage you to go ahead 

Thanks,
Juan

[acg]

Hi Anthony,

I read some time ago from you that this is going to be a DIY project, is it correct?.

I hope you have success in the end and we can all benefit from this power supply. Anyway from here I congratulate you for your effort and I encourage you to go ahead 

Thanks,
Juan

Thanks Juan,

It is a DIY thing at this stage until we have a design that is tested and measured and final.  After that there will need to be some sort of production so that the people that want one can get one, but I have not thought too hard about how that is going to work, just that it will happen if the product is a good one.  I certainly don't want to build them myself, so we will have to find someone to do it, but that is a bridge that we will cross when we get to it.

Cheers,

Anthony

[PeterSt]

Hi there Anthony,

So, still going strong eh ? Good.

Well, if it isn't going to fit in this case, we'll have to find another. The only downside will be that it will be larger. Haha. But for now we shouldn't worry about it.

Don't hesitate to let us do the soldering. In that case, also don't hesitate to make it SMD 0403 if that can gain a lot for the PCB size. But only then, because 0403 isn't even visible. Haha.

I don't know whether your EE can solder this himself (or in his company ) but if this is a problem, you may consider to send me the Gerber files (these are files which contain all about the PCB layout so they can be produced automatically) so I can have them produced, sent to me, source the parts and solder them. Next step I am not sure about, but logically I would send the lot to you out there. I would do that all for free.

Keep in mind that this is mainly about the soldering which has to be done manually (otherwise it will be unaffordable) and that this thus is about needing someone who can do that.
Also don't forget that having made a few proto PCBs does not need to cost much, but as soon as you/we need 20 and more you will loose heavily on it, and hopping over to normal production will cost, say, 150 euros for the design (in the production company). IOW, never apply prototyping when you head for "production" and thus start out with "production" right away. This means paying 150 euros for the design plus maybe 2 euros for the PCB (or 1 euro for the larger quantities) and for a repeat order de PCB remains that 2-1 euro.
Prototyping may cost 5-15 euro per PCB (depending on the size - usually goes per square dm) and no design costs. And quality is worse.

Your EE will know the abouts too but he really needs to be all over in the project in order to make the right decisions which in the end IS all about money - money the consumer needs to pay.

2c
Peter

[PeterSt]

Here's a few thoughts on what can go out of the PC when space is needed :

Notice : This anticipate today's views on how the PC operates best, which is with the least devices connected.

The internally assembled 2.5" disk. You won't gain much here, except when the whole bracket can go to which it is fitted.

Obviously the normal ATX PSU. This is more or less related to mentioned bracket. I am doing this by heart, thus not looking at the PC right now ... Thus, remove the PSU, remove the bracket which is over it and nothing is left at that right side.
But also no 2.5" removable bay and no DVD drive.

On the left side there are the two removale 3.5" bays. The bottom one can be removed and the top one can be removed as well but this latter can be replaced with a 2x 2.5" removable bay including DVD. Think the size of that device now being on the right side. Not sure how to fit it because it will need a kind of bracket as is on the right side.
Accidentally I will receive such a "drive" one of these days so I can have a look whether that can be mounted in the left side somehow.

I can't oversee (without looking at the PC) whether anything can really be gained on the left side because I think it will be over the MoBo there. On the other hand it won't be all that difficult to have a bracket/plate made that fits over the MoBo there and where maybe a pile of capacitors can find their place.


Having said this all, this came to my mind :

Just have a second same box. Cost for that an additional ~100 euros (plus additional shipping roughly estimated on 100 euros for "average" parts of the word because of the total size of all !). Now use a nice umbilical cord for the power connection from the one to the other. That would fit all.
Now two of these cases can nicely be stacked and I don't think that will make anything worse (one larger case will I think).

Just give this some thoughts ...
Peter

[acg]

Hi there Anthony,

So, still going strong eh ? Good.

Well, if it isn't going to fit in this case, we'll have to find another. The only downside will be that it will be larger. Haha. But for now we shouldn't worry about it.

Don't hesitate to let us do the soldering. In that case, also don't hesitate to make it SMD 0403 if that can gain a lot for the PCB size. But only then, because 0403 isn't even visible. Haha.

I don't know whether your EE can solder this himself (or in his company ) but if this is a problem, you may consider to send me the Gerber files (these are files which contain all about the PCB layout so they can be produced automatically) so I can have them produced, sent to me, source the parts and solder them. Next step I am not sure about, but logically I would send the lot to you out there. I would do that all for free.

Keep in mind that this is mainly about the soldering which has to be done manually (otherwise it will be unaffordable) and that this thus is about needing someone who can do that.
Also don't forget that having made a few proto PCBs does not need to cost much, but as soon as you/we need 20 and more you will loose heavily on it, and hopping over to normal production will cost, say, 150 euros for the design (in the production company). IOW, never apply prototyping when you head for "production" and thus start out with "production" right away. This means paying 150 euros for the design plus maybe 2 euros for the PCB (or 1 euro for the larger quantities) and for a repeat order de PCB remains that 2-1 euro.
Prototyping may cost 5-15 euro per PCB (depending on the size - usually goes per square dm) and no design costs. And quality is worse.

Your EE will know the abouts too but he really needs to be all over in the project in order to make the right decisions which in the end IS all about money - money the consumer needs to pay.

2c
Peter

Yep still going strong.  I was not sure whether you would want to do the production side of things Peter, but I am very happy if you do.  My EE friend does SMD solder but like me has no interest in doing production volumes so I think we can figure something out.

We are trying to limit the 3 rail ATX PCB to 160mm x 100mm (which is an Eagle software limit) including the rectifier bridges and ATX control logic.  There is also a satellite dual reg board for the super low noise 5V 1A supplies (SSD and USB card) that will be around 100mm x 80mm (for everything but the transformers) but it will not require heatsinking so will have some flexibility for placement.  We have not yet looked too hard at the supply for the P8 cpu but I think it will need quite a bit of capacitance (hence size) and it will need considerable heatsinking so it will probably stay within the main LPSU box with the ATX PCB.

I am dubious about long umbilical cords between an external psu and the computer, mainly because of the possibility to induct noise on our clean power.  If I had my way I would get a pc case so that I could direct connect the linear psu into the P24 socket of the mobo - no wires at all and then have the more critical ultra low-noise supplies close to the ssd and USB card (but controlled by the ATX LPSU) for the same reasons.  Anyway, that is probably being pedantic.   

Cheers,

Anthony

[acg]

Here's a few thoughts on what can go out of the PC when space is needed :

Notice : This anticipate today's views on how the PC operates best, which is with the least devices connected.

The internally assembled 2.5" disk. You won't gain much here, except when the whole bracket can go to which it is fitted.

Obviously the normal ATX PSU. This is more or less related to mentioned bracket. I am doing this by heart, thus not looking at the PC right now ... Thus, remove the PSU, remove the bracket which is over it and nothing is left at that right side.
But also no 2.5" removable bay and no DVD drive.

On the left side there are the two removale 3.5" bays. The bottom one can be removed and the top one can be removed as well but this latter can be replaced with a 2x 2.5" removable bay including DVD. Think the size of that device now being on the right side. Not sure how to fit it because it will need a kind of bracket as is on the right side.
Accidentally I will receive such a "drive" one of these days so I can have a look whether that can be mounted in the left side somehow.

I can't oversee (without looking at the PC) whether anything can really be gained on the left side because I think it will be over the MoBo there. On the other hand it won't be all that difficult to have a bracket/plate made that fits over the MoBo there and where maybe a pile of capacitors can find their place.


Having said this all, this came to my mind :

Just have a second same box. Cost for that an additional ~100 euros (plus additional shipping roughly estimated on 100 euros for "average" parts of the word because of the total size of all !). Now use a nice umbilical cord for the power connection from the one to the other. That would fit all.
Now two of these cases can nicely be stacked and I don't think that will make anything worse (one larger case will I think).

Just give this some thoughts ...
Peter

I've got Robs XXHE PC here at the moment (you know Rob - new NOS1 owner here in Oz) and he has put it in a larger Streacom case which has loads more room than the standard case.  There is always an option like that.

 

[pedal]

Yes, PSU in a separate cabinet is highly desirable, both for heat issue and (probably) sound betters, too.

I am keen to buy this combo when the linear PSU issue is solved.

A screened cord with an added ferrite snapped on at the PC-end avoids any pick-up of radiated noise. This I know as a fact, from a very serious manufacturer of high end DAC and amplifiers.
Contrary, putting the PSU inside a cramped cabinet might create more radiation problems, due to the magnetic fields of the coils.

[PeterSt]

Anyway, that is probably being pedantic.

No, maybe not. But I figured that the regulator board (if there, but you just said so) can be in the actual PC case, the transformers and capacitor banks in that "PSU case".

Of course it all depends on how you guys see the general design and how critical the current space is to begin with.

What was also in my mind is the heat;
So, while you talk about "conciderable heatsinking" I think you can forget it do have that inside of the normal PC; you will never get out the heat unless 70dB fans are in there (per piece, so that totals to 210dB hahahaha - I actually wonder why calculators never contain dB math);
With the external box that probably still won't go (but notice that that too is "fanned"), but *there* you have the opportunity to make a nice heatsink at the back side (say where the PCI brackets normally are). Where the PSU normally sits is another space for that.

Peter