Phasure to X-fi 2013

[PeterSt]

Hi all,

Like last year Phasure will attend this year's X-fi show. The sound in our room - room number 30 this time - should exceed everything and all (make up your own subjects ). At least I myself have done the best I could, so come over to Veldhoven (Sept. 14/15) and listen for yourself how music reproduction through loudspeakers can perform these days.

Similar to last year we will be doing all together with Bert Doppenberg (BD-Design), but our collaboration extended somewhat to now offering complete systems as if presented by one company and one consistent design (and one responsible party towards you). This has been our idea for over 3 years by now, and today it really is there.

The Orelino speakers you see showing off here is a commercial speaker, based on the no-compromises Big Orelo design from last year. That was a tad large, and never meant to really fit in any room. But it would show us possbilities of free open baffle sound. From there the Orelino sprung and I dare say it works even better than the Big Orelo - it will fit your room and looks better (but this is personal of course).

Never forgetting that it is all Bert's (craft)work, we can well add that I was Bert's sheer pain and I "required" (mind the quotes) it to be as good as the Big Orelo. So, way smaller but as good.
Also, it is our both idea to enable customers to buy a complete system - with the guarantee of no audible noise at full gain etc. you all know from me, plus of course you should be able to perceive the same best sound we perceive over here. And if not, the culprit must be elsewhere and can now so (relatively) easily be sorted out. This lead to all the amplification needed to be in the phase plug (the vertical bar you see in the middle of the speaker) which' location is one of these great ideas from Bert.

So, after we both (Bert ahead !) applied some general design principles to let this speaker perform like Big Orelo and Bert crafted all into what you see in the picture, I was given the nice task to let it really work out in the larger room (like mine, which measures 12x8x3m). And well, after more than a week that was achieved yesterday. Possibly because I never give up once I think something can be done. The biggest surprise however, came throughout the process of "tuning" (XOver) it;

It is to be remembered that this is actually an open baffle design. It works as a horn, but still there is no pressure chamber and although that makes the woofers move free (implying no distortion which normally would be there), this is the worst for creating some SPL (Sound Pressure (Level)). So, some DSP certainly would be needed ...
And yes, even PeterSt who is plainly against everything which only smells like "DSP" would admit it should be for the better. Or maybe : just allowed for the bass section (only !).
And on a side note : in search for a best DSP module, I could not find anything that would not compromise severely. Sample rate is always too low etc., and what would happen is that at the back end there's a poor D/A at work, that replacing the nice NOS1 ... (that's what it comes down to). But hey, for the bass ...

So there I was, tweaking with the DSP module and trying to get out something that would not colour and/or buzz. I couldn't do it. Not in a week's time. All sorts of subjects were theoretically to blame - one of them the current Orelino not being the final version yet and the buzzing I heard could be dedicated to resonance - and what to do now. Luckily Bert went off for a well deserved vacation (at this moment of writing he still is) so I couldn't travel the path of finalizing the speaker for this possible resonance. It woudn't have helped anyway ...

Long story somewhat shorter : DSP just doesn't cut it. So, all the means where there to create a best XOver with the mid-high, but all I could get out of it was no-buzz but no bass as well. Nothing we would go for ...

And thus the completely unexpected thing :
I applied a normal passive XOver which I actually only did to see what would come out of that not knowing anymore what else to do. And right at the first attempt it was bingo; All what I had been struggeling with in a week's time had vanished. It just worked. Well, except for the proper XOver point which took me another day (yesterday), but finally the speaker performed way better than my own. And mind you, no subwoofers in the chain (which I always used).

I threw in all the "knowledge" and equipment for measuring, which even includes real time FFT (which I think no speaker designer ever does) and fine tuned the lot with playing real music. The speaker goes flat (!) to 23Hz and the nice thing is that its characteristics are so that beyond that it drops off like a stone (like 120dB/Octave). So no distortions there either; a fundamental of 23Hz just plays and does what it has to do (like implying all its odd harmonics for a squared wave) and 22Hz already does not show at all.

Time alignment - another thing which would require DSP - appeared not necessary because of the mid-high horn has sufficient back/forward headroom to phase align all as should. Mind you, I phase aligned the both, not impulse aligned (Bert knows that this is one of my hobby horses and now I had the opportunity). This too needs real time analysis and since I own the equipment ...

Be shocked ... This plays at a 100dBSPL continuously and easily (playing louder is not much required here). No standing waves anywhere, no buzzing. And might it tell something, yesterday I played over 90dBSPL for 6 hours in a row, and I received no complaint throughout. This is LOUD you know.
And still this is open baffle based. Who would have thought that (Bert not, me not).

I posted this in the Phasure NOS1 board because of course the base is and remains the DAC. So what I know and recognized is the same buzzing implied by regular DACs (or playback software for that matter). It was by accident though that I proved that indeed none of this "DSP" stuff is allowed anywhere. It doesn't work in a DAC, it doesn't work in software and it also doesn't work in a speaker; logic of course, because it would imply the same (of both mentioned). But I was totally open to it and had the idea it couldn't work without DSP anyway. Spending a full week on it was foolish, I see now.
Anyway I think it proves how important it is to have a consistent system where all design elements perfectly match. In this case this goes rather far of course and I think (for design philosophy) further than any Sony set.

Last litte note :
This is the fourth post about this; my previous three attempts invited you all to come over and listen, for which I planned a group hug yesterday (Saturday) - also for people I don't know at all. This, because it would be a one time opportunity to listen to the Orelino's in the larger room, anticipating all might fail in the always disappointing hotel room (of a Show). I twisted and twirled to justify what you would perceive and how it would be for the better. But all three times I couldn't post it; I wasn't even honest to myself.
Now it is too late for this, unless some individual is seriously interested in obtaining a pair of Orelino's before they disappear from here; it possibly can be squeezed in the upcoming days (if you don't like to post in here, contact me through sales phasure com). After the X-fi show Bert will be happy to receive you, but remember this is in a relatively small room (which can be like yours of course - roughly 7x5.5x2.8m).
Let me add to this that I did totally nothing to adapt the speaker to the room; They were dunked somewhere of which thought it would be okay (see photo) and they were never moved. Also, the filter does not contain any notches (would cover for standing waves) anywhere, so chances are fair it works out as "perfectly" in that hotel room. So we hope to see you there at least.

Regards to all,
Peter

PS: Bert doesn't know about this post but I am authorized to do what I want. This goes as far as "selling" with the small though fairly important remark that this logically goes on a first come first serve base, also with the knowledge that three of these speaker systems are in order right now (not counting orders Bert knows about).

[AlainGr]

Wow... When I hear all that this can achieve, from a person that I have full confidence in, I just feel miserable with what I have I just can try to imagine the power that it can boast, plus the weight of the music in which one will immerse...

And they are beautiful to look at !

What word could describe what Bert and you have achieved...

Bravo is not the best word, but it certainly goes in my mind's direction !

Alain 

[CoenP]

This sounds all very promising!

I plan to visit the x-fi on sunday mostly to hear this system.
Hope to meet you there,

Regards, Coen

[Stanray]

A great achievement!

I'll be there, with some very picky friends   

Best wishes,

Stanley

[manisandher]

Hey, thanks for the write-up Peter. I'm definitely on the 'very interested' list for the Orelinos. What I'm looking for over my Swings is a more dynamic bottom end - one that can better match the dynamics of the MF/HF horn. The Swings are great speakers (the best I've had to date), but I think there's just too much being asked from the single bass driver. I've found using a SET amp has helped. Having the horn driven SE and the bass driver driven PP (by the in-built bass gain amp) seems to have fixed the issue somewhat... but maybe not totally.

Of course I need to take a listen to the Orelinos before placing an order. I can't make X-fi unfortunately so will take a listen at Bert's place sometime. Looking at my diary, I doubt this will be any time this year though.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani,

Your Swings contain 2x15" drivers. Per side that is.
Just in case you don't know ...

Peter

[CoenP]

That is two drivers in"isobaric" mode for extra low distortion. The horn is diven only by one. Or am I mistaken?

Regards, Coen

P.s i am talking about Manis speakers

[PeterSt]

Correct Coen (both shining forward).

Peter

[manisandher]

Your Swings contain 2x15" drivers. Per side that is.
Just in case you don't know ...

Hey Peter, I think that was the case for the original MkI Swings. Mine are a pair of MkII Swings, which I'm sure only have a single 15" driver per side. I'm not sure why Bert went this route for the MkIIs...

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hmm ... I now vaguely recall something like the both not being able to behave the same because the back-one receives pressure from the pressure chamber while the front one does virtually not, and while in the mean time the front one is subject to the distortion of the back one (and so they start to work against eachother).

But maybe I am making this up ...

Peter

[Scroobius]

Hey Peter - The Orelino's look great Bert has done a great job with the finish. I was just wondering - from my understanding (but I have to admit I don't always understand you!!) you started thinking that the bass needed a boost and DSP would be the only way but then you found that a Xover worked. Does that mean you had to reduce the output to the HF horn in the Xover to get the speaker balanced? if so what is the sensitivity of the Orelino now? Or did it just *work*.

Hoping to have a listen at some time.

Paul

[CoenP]

Peter,

From your first post I got the impression that the Orelino is overall a much better speaker than the Oris. Since it is based on the same mf/hf driver and horn, all the difference is made by improvements in the range 200Hz and below. It surprises me that this changes the overall sound so much, because 70% of the spectrum stays the same. Did Bert also develop a new filter for the mf/hf?

Regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

Hey Paul,

from my understanding (but I have to admit I don't always understand you!!) you started thinking that the bass needed a boost and DSP would be the only way but then you found that a Xover worked.

You understood very well, because I don't think I talked about "boosting" as such, while for sure this was my message. So notice though that while I worked on XOvers and filtering a kind of forever (like for those Swings, though MKI), I had no experience with literal "open baffle". On that matter I could only "learn" from what others tell about it and it includes Bert's Diamond design which in the end failed for the reason of Open Baffle just not being able to work. Hey, says me, and with reference to the room problems it implies. Also, it is the most easy to adopt the "fact" that "of course" it needs boosting as such, because without pressure chamber how to create sufficient SPL otherwise.

I never worked on that Diamond (only always and ever confirmed it didn't work out for the bass), BUT could help Bert with a new Open Baffle design because of the (audible) experience. Help or being a prick maybe. But in the end this is only about making Open Baffle more efficient (all credits to Bert there).

Now a bit careful on that "boost" ...
Where I sure implied "boosting" in a negative sense, this would have referred to "the lower the frequency the more boost (Watts) is needed". I'd say (but not sure) that everybody will think this is "logic" for an open baffle design; The lower frequencies just need more power to emerge (flatly towards the bottom side) and thus it is the idea to apply more power the lower the frequencies go. Bert knows that it was exactly this that I always could perceive because it sounds processed. In the end it is of course (because DSP).

Now on an important side note : The way "active" designs work, is at least always about how to bring the active bass side in balande with the mid-high. This is no secret and any subwoofer starts out with that principle (has to be, because how otherwise make the levels match). So, it needs a volume knob. This is and was my own chain-principle just the same (I think layed out in beginning of the GainClone topic), and for example for Mani's Swings this works the same; there's an active bass side, and a volume knon brings it in balance with the mid-high, where the amp to the mid-high is Mani's own.

One thing : It is actually not allowed to ever change that volume once the speaker is delivered as a complete design, because you will change the XOver drastically with that.

Now, thinking about such a design, it is good to remember that the output of the mid-high amp is input to the bass amp. The former is actually serving as a pre-amp; it "makes" the sound (largely).

So Paul, in summarize, this I would not call boosting. At least not in the more negative sense I would call that boosting as deemed necessary for the Open Baffle.

Back to the main subject, for this Orelino design too the "negative" boosting was deemed necessary. But by sheer accident, because I didn't like the DSP, I applied a normal passive filter, and all the way down it kept on working.
I am not sure whether Bert ever tried (but I think not), which already springs from necessary time alignment, that needed DSP.
I think that because of all applied to make the bass section as efficient as possible (remember, this should be the commercial versin of that Big Orelo) - and which principles will not be layed out to the public - it inherently gets more efficient when the frequency drops. This is not only shown by the straight response (with passive filter) but also by the drop-dead once the driver gives up.
I, most personally, and not hindered by knowledge in the field of loudepaker enclosures, would dare to present it the other way around : the more excursion a driver needs in its closed (enclosure) environment, the more tough that will be because of counter (air) pressure. No such thing with Open Baffle added with other principles I won't tell about (I don't think Bert would like me to). Keep in mind as a vague hint : it is a horn.

It should not be a secret (in all honesty) that the "efficiency" as such within the "boosted" design not in the negative sense, is measured by the output of the amp to the mid-high horn and which in this case is 114dB (on the safe side - otherwise 115dB). The little "trick" could be that one 30W or so GainClone for the mid-high is bridged to a second - also 30W GainClone, and both mid-high and bass show equal output. Thus, mid-high = 114dB thus bass also is 114dB because both are fed with 30W.
See the trick ?

Let me finish this with this real life truth :
When I applied the passive filtering (see upcoming larger post), I used my own amplifiers as well (the 30Ws I just talked about). Those amplifiers normally connect to the very same Orphean Horn (with same XOver point as for the Orelino) which allowed me to use my exact same filtering as well. My own normal speaker has 1x15" for the bass. This is a far more efficient driver as the 12" in the Orelino (don't stick me on the figures, but think in the area of 98dB vs 90dB - a real difference). Now :

In my own speaker situation that volume knob I talked about is at quarter past. With the Orelino it's at noon.
Quite impossible eh ? 1x15" of 98dB and 3x12" of 90dB. And Open Baffle as well (my own bass speaker is just closed but is a horn).
This is how this "open baffle" type is so effcient. The volume knob proves it.
So, 2x30W or so (gain is 20), digital attenuation is the same as always (around -22dB to -25dB for the loud levels) - obviously because the mid-high horn never changed.

Peter

[Jud]

for the reason of Open Baffle just not being able to work

Humm, says this Vandersteen owner.   

[PeterSt]

From your first post I got the impression that the Orelino is overall a much better speaker than the Oris. Since it is based on the same mf/hf driver and horn, all the difference is made by improvements in the range 200Hz and below. It surprises me that this changes the overall sound so much, because 70% of the spectrum stays the same. Did Bert also develop a new filter for the mf/hf?

Hi Coen,

I know from my own first BD-Design contacts that it's a bit difficult to follow which is what. So maybe I make a couple of mistakes here (I don't think so of course ) but if so I will stand corrected by Bert in later stage;

First of all, the Oris is a by now very old design; it carries a sort of full range driver (of various brands) and there is no single way you can start comparing it to the Orelino. The Oris is a horn (my vision) while the Orelino is a complete speaker.

Next, the Orelino also carries a horn, like the Oris is such a horn. But, for the Orlino this is the Orphean horn, and this is never meant to be full range. It is the same horn as in/on Mani's Swings.
The Orphean uses a compression driver (two-way) which has been filtered / XOvered so good that it is and remains the only mid-high driver which I personally like to see in any speaker design, because of its possible power (400W I think) and sounding like metal instead of paper.
And don't listen to that Cat.

The filter for the Orphean is nothing like what can be used for the Oris (adjacent bass assumed). It exists in three versions, MKI, MKII and PeterSt.
The latter is not completely fair, because always based upon Bert's MKI, but still serious because I worked on that for a year in a row, and still regularly change things. And if my ears don't deceive me, my own (thus MKI based) filter will be in the Orelino. But Bert obviously has to agree with it and there's not much time left for me/us to get it in there. So maybe that can't happen for the Show.
When he is back from vacation he will be floored for the first couple of hours anyway, hearing what happened to his speaker (never forget, it is hs speaker). So it may be difficult to judge in fast enough fashion, similar to it being hard for me to change things in the highs section just because the bass is so thunderly overwhelming (in the most good sense I mean) ... Also see my next post.

Peter