Windows 8 disappointment.

[CoenP]

Hi Peter,

I just noticed Phasure and B-D designs presence on the x-fi in Veldhoven next week.
This looks like an ideal local opportunity to get myself a reference for WIN8 sound with Bert's latest creation the Orelino which looks mighty interesting.
I guess they are running in and being tuned at your place right now...

Regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

I guess they are running in and being tuned at your place right now...

Haha, you don't want to know what post I just finished preparing. Now I am waiting for a photo to add to it ...

[manisandher]

Now I am waiting for a photo to add to it ...

So what's wrong with this one?

Mani.

Edit: As always, very interested in hearing what you think. And depending upon what you say, I may be in the market for a pair. If so, I'll be selling my Swings. If anyone here wants them, I'll be selling them for what I paid - i.e. 1/4 of their retail price!

[CoenP]

This developement did not go unnoticed by the Cat:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=19794#19794

High praise for Bert (and Peter) indeed, with the usual characteristic rough borders.

Regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

So what's wrong with this one?

Unexpected answer :

That I just had to change everything because ...

Because I heard a slight hum from the mid-high. Trafo-like.
So yes guys, these things don't happen only to you all - also just the same to me. Just get yourself a new couple of amps, speakers, and there you go ... AGAIN.
Still nothing should have changed ...

So many hours further and with taking many deep breaths to change a few rather drastic things for actually other reasons, it is my conclusion that a too closely mounted filter section (XOver) to the transformer or maybe other voltage regulators picked up in the filter coils etc.
Result ? to-tal-ly silent again.

If this wouldn't be me. I would have thought "oh well, some bit of noise with your ear in the speaker". But it was me, and with a dose of "reference" I couldn't sleep of it until it was solved. So it is now. Time for a re-listen ...
(but a beer first )

Peter

[AlainGr]

Murphy's law ? Since I came back from vacation, all sort of things are happening at work... Most of them related to a person that is on vacation...

[CoenP]

So many hours further and with taking many deep breaths to change a few rather drastic things for actually other reasons, it is my conclusion that a too closely mounted filter section (XOver) to the transformer or maybe other voltage regulators picked up in the filter coils etc.

Loudspeaker filtercoils pick up a lot of stuff. Once I disconnected the amplifiersignal to the filtersection of one driver (you can do that with biwiring). Still music was playing though that driver at a low but hearable level. It turned out to be the coils of the filter coupling with eachother. With a relocation and repositioning I could attain silence. I was surprised how much apart they had to be even with orthogonal axes.
This is very noicable with efficient horns of course.

Plus I can make disconnected speakers hum by just touching the loose wires.

Regards, Coen

[AlainGr]

I never thought I would write this. Since I switched to W8, my intention was to go forward and never turn back, whatever W8 would have something inferior or not compared to W7 (unless it would have been too obvious). At the time, while I was unable to differentiate the 2 of them, now I can better express how each of them behaves.

In comparison to W7, W8 is precise, forward and detailed.  It acts like a "lense" that increases definition to a level that W7 can't pretend to reach and it really gets the best subtleties from the instruments. As for tonality, I am less sure that W8 beats W7, but for definition, there is not much comparison (to my ears) - W8 is a clear winner.

In comparison, W7 sounds a bit "blurred", without the deep LF and HF that I can hear with W8. It is "softer", less clinical... Peter used the word "distorted" and I believe him. At the 2 extremities of the spectrum, W8 is the best, while in between, W7 feels a little more natural. Again, I could be wrong, but I feel that W7 is less affected by different situations that could emanate from problems in the chain.

Living with W8 for almost a year now and switching to W7 brought this as a surprise. There is something so precise about W8 that the word "surgical" comes to my mind, but not as a negative note. I have always liked definition and micro-dynamics.

Recently I changed a VGA cable to a DVI > HDMI  cable. Right after that, it started. I began to hear something around the singer's voice. This reminds me of a similar phenomenon when I changed many of my AC cables for "audiophile" ones: there was a "halo" around some women's voices, but it finally disappeared after a few months. I can't explain this, so the word "break-in" could apply here.

With the DVI > HDMI cable it started with many voices exhibiting a strange sound, something like a microphone saturation, a kind of "edgy wrap", sometimes "granular", not always stable though. Certain passages show this. It is audible not only with women, but also with men's voice. In fact, it acts like the AC cables did a few years ago, but it does not look as if it will disappear through time.

I brought back the VGA cable. But after observing this, against my will, I started looking for that strange behaviour around voices... Now, each time there is a man, a woman or a group of singer's, I am watching for this. I wish I never did, because I can't get rid of it now !...

Since I have 2 pairs of speakers and 2 power amps, dacs, PCs and USB cables (one PC and a laptop), I tried different combinations to see it that was coming from one of my components. I even brought back my bad habit of using networking to access my music PC through Remote Desktop Connection (RDC). Direct connection between dac and power amp or through the preamp did not change that behaviour. I swapped the AC cables since I have 2 different kinds. I switched from the electrical AC outlet, disconnected everything that could have some effect on my components (TV, router, subs). I even disconnected the supertweeters, assured that there was no other speakers around. I even got my Paul Pang USB 3 controller card that replaced the SOTM USB 3 PCIe card (was removed), reinstalled W8 from a backup (was backed up right after its activation, without any attempt on my part to "tweak" something, nor deactivate any port from the PC)... Of course the PP card has to break in, but this started well before its arrival (about 3 days ago).

No matter what I did (playing with all possible adjustments through XXHE), nothing seems to tame this. I played with the NOS1 buffers (from its control panel) also.

It is as if the microphones were saturating with the voices. There is too much details, up to a point where it "wraps" the voice tones with a "granular halo" that badly affects SQ. Nothing of this happens when there are no human voices ??? I thought about a lot of potential culprits, but I can't find a common denominator.

I still have to get a different power bar just to check if this can explain that, but what I can't explain is how could I let this pass for so many months without hearing it ?

So for the moment, I am back with W7... Until I find what is causing this, I will alternate between W7 and W8, but I sure wish I can use W8 without this happening... I have to think about a few potential solutions (line conditioner, different earth connection, regular AC cables, etc...). This will take some time, but while I am not asking for a solution in the forum, I am a little exasperated about this. Always remembering that this is a hobby, I also repeat to myself that all I have spent is aimed towards music and the pleasure if brings.

Turning back to W7 does not eliminate totally the behaviour I describe here. Now that I heard this, I can't help myself but always look for it. This is now an obsession and sometimes I am so fed up with it that either it dictates my choice of music (like instrumental) or I don't listen to music at all.

I still hope I am forgetting something. Maybe the change of season here (less humidity since I started heating), maybe noise in AC line...

Maybe I should call this "The Windows 8 sensitivity syndrome"...

Alain

[PeterSt]

I never thought I would write this.

My friend Alain,

Assumed that this is because it took you a couple of years to be able to discern *any* difference in the first place ... what about a big congratulations that you are now in a leage you did not expect to reach. And I am serious.

Anticipating a post about SQ and Windows 8.1 in my next morning it is my advice to reinstal just that and observe ...
You can easily be ahead of me because I won't post today anymore, which btw is not necessary at all. But might you feel challenged please open a new topic in "Your thoughts about the SQ" board.



Best regards,
Peter

[AlainGr]

Thanks Peter. I had the same thought about my ability to discern differences (...). At least I can through enough time.

I will do the turn to W8.1 in the following days (this week-end is one of those where I can't do much listening). 

But... I am not very optimistic...

Regards,

Alain

[CoenP]

Hi Alain,

Did you observe less intelligability of voices with win8 compared to 7? To me all seems a bit too "concentrated" in windows 8, paradoxically leading to less structure and musical detail.

Fwiw I have my n-th rebound to win7. This was unintentional, just wanted to listen to some music while developing RAW photofiles (win7 setup only). There is something in that sound that I really like, haven't listened to win8 since while that doesn't sound nearly that bad now as it once did.

Regards, Coen

[AlainGr]

Hi Cohen,

Yes, I could use the words you picked to precise what I hear with voices.

That would sound like a microphone that picks up all that comes from one's throat... Some artists have a sizzling air blast with their voice... This is exaggerated with W8. Would "sibilance" be the right word ? I can't tell...

I still have a long way to go for audio vocabulary, but like you I feel the need to listen to W7, to "breathe" for a moment. I need some rest, just listening to music... And hoping

It comforts me not to be alone in our journey...

Regards,

Alain

[boleary]

Tried W8 yesterday with my bnc interconnects. The sound was good but not as  tonally balanced as W7. With W8, kick drums sounded incredible but voices had a bit too much mid range emphasis, or were a bit congested compared to W7. If this is the result of W7 distortion, then I guess I'm a distortion freak, or perhaps a distorted freak.....maybe a little bit of both.