Windows 8 disappointment.

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

Ever since I have switched over to W 8, I have been very disappointed with the musical qualities of the sound. Even with IMDisk, the musical qualities are missing & the music is no more involving.

I am so confused & depressed & I have no clue how to move fwd. Just yesterday eve I was listening to Neil Diamond & instead of hearing his deep throaty voice I could hear a thinner nasal voice, as if he was singing an octave higher.

I could reverse the process & go back to W 7 but I am holding back as yet. Any clue what might be causing this?

Regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

All,

I advised Arvind to put this on the forum, hoping for some useful response from others, because I don't have any. I will try some blahblah though in a next post.

Also, I don't see any single person being negative about Windows 8 anymore, which I find sort of hard to believe. I think that I am satisfied myself but which does not mean I can't see negatives;
If everybody is happy, so be it. But when not, please let know how.
And let's try to help Arvind here.

Peter

[PeterSt]

Blahblah :

Well, in between the last sentence and the first in here, I already thought of something which is not all that blahblah maybe;
Arvind, you don't have the new osciallators in your NOS1 yet, and this could be consistent (thinking) with the blah I had in mind anyway.

Having worked on Windows 8 for many months, I know how difficult it is to get right. As we know, many posts were spent on this and in the end I got it "working". Still, I think it is all the most critical (bad SQ borders are crossed easily) but as how it (XXHighEnd) is today, no setting changes really do that. External factors do, and the PC is suspect first. Or maybe the Windows 8 OS itself is. And washing machine stuff.

What I do recognize is that when not all falls in place properly, the sort of "sharp" rendering W8 implies fastly turns into literal nasty sound indeed. With that comes thin sound or better put : not filling the room. This latter for 100% sure is needed (I am convinced) and when this doesn't happen W8 playback fails to begin with. This is the "needs to be loud enough" story. But, who is going to turn up the volume while nasty sound is going on ? me not. Plus it doesn't help.
So, not really a chicken-egg problem, but once the nasty sound is there, the prerequisite of energising the room will never be met in the first place. Compare this with no nastyness being there and a too low volume. That brings thin sound or at least not the best. It now needs to turn up the volume, but at least in this situation (no nastyness) it can be done.

I keep on saying that it really can happen that on a random day SQ it totally bad and won't get good by any means. What I learned myself is to play music which doesn't show that, and see again next day. Not playing at all is a no-go (for me), and try to get it right is frustrating. It won't anyway.

Also, there seems to be something around a 30 minute of (first of the day) playback boundary, where things get better like something got burned in. Almost without exception I notice this. BUT, I always had a similar impression with W7 though less noticeable. This very well can be a NOS1 thing or just amplifiers (but all is always on here).
Not worth while thinking about this further, unless we all recognize this, and then still it is dangerous because these "all" can be NOS1 users.

Fact is also (for me) that almost nothing needs to happen or musicality has gone. Maybe I should say that it is less anyway than with W7. But here too, when such a day emerges, I just don't play the music that shows this much. Point is : there's so much goodies coming from W8 that I don't find it difficult to act like this.

Had enough blahblah ?
No ?? Ok, let's approach it from the other side; a more constructive one :

W8 *is* more lean. For sound I mean. All SQ properties show this, foremost the more detail. And today I don't think this is faked detail because of more sharp or distortion, but - as how I think - merely from less underlaying "tones" which should not be there in the first place. This is critical (and critical thinking) because I still do think that just a little tad of "under it" is lacking. I see this in many cymbals, where too few colour is in them. However, only when the recording is more poor (but as you know I don't like to blame recordings ever, so no excuse there if you would ask me);

When you are used to W8 for a longer time (and this is not 2 days), then switching back to W7 you hear it right away. But, first thing you notice is "more bass". However, it needs the being used to W8 to recognize that this bass is largely fake. It is not as defined and the more colour in cymbals is overwhelmed with distortion you can suddenly hear. Not that I heard that 6 months ago, but today this is easy.

Things are strange;
Before the latest XXHighEnd (0.9z-9) all kept on exploding because of too high dynamics. Today I often have the idea that something's wrong with my ears because of too less freshness. The complete opposite and actually unimaginable how it works ! But it does.
But to me it again feels like doing the smallest thing wrong, and you are at the other side of this coin. And this is not XXHighEnd settings. It is PC stuff though and all what's around it (environmental things). This includes the OS and what it does, which sort of sadly, is in a way "dynamically" for Windows 8 (it tries to be smart).
An example, which is also known from the "shouting" XXHighEnd versions, months ago, but now from yesterday :

I am playing something, sounds ok all over but one thing : no real music. So, I use Alt-x to pre-select a next album while the other was at its last track, and which bringing up of XXHighEnd switches on a few things in my situation (this is new). Well, right away I heard that "strings" were nylon strings with their beautiful property of singing (harmonics interaction). This could be easily seen because it happened during playing. But it is not much different from these months ago where people only would be satisfied when playing in Normal OS (and even Attended I think).
Still this "singing" can happen with all shut off just the same, but not every day. Well, the story above.

Because all must "match" so well and has a very limited bandwidth as it seems, it is my idea that actually nobody is really able to achieve it. This is how I (somewhere) advised to have a dual boot with W7 so you can go back and try again later. Still, what has been done in XXHighEnd seems to help most sufficiently enough, just like it helped me enough to not want to go back. But keep in mind my way of working, which is strange and not really intended (play something which doesn't suffer for this lousy day).
I also know how much the mains connections etc. matter, like the "switch all off" at the bottom of my W8 sig. I do that, but can't do it to all extend already because it is too complex to know what influences. And, since this helps, it can well be that at certain days something is on which I don't recognize. In the same realm "you" can have that something on always, and it now never works.

When not all falls in place, no warm sound will come from W8;
The micro interaction needed, which is at "micro level" in the first place, fire back at you or something. This is how I referred to the oscillators of Arvind which really really matter, and of which I think the better ones can help the falling in place of all.
Also, assumed that nobody else really complains, and only Arvin does, it could be noteworthy that I know of only *one* person having troubles with the sound from NOS1-USB (before that using its precedessor) and this was Arvind. I don't know how this eventually worked out, but here it could be important to see that the NOS1-USB really is miles better than its predecessor while for Arvind it worked counter productive. How ? Arvind needs a preamp in the chain. So, never mind the real merit, but as we know I sort of forbid that, and when it is in, its properties are more emphasized once the DAC is adding less (is more neutral);
As said, I don't know what came from this, but assumed the preamp is still there, the story can well be the same. But, only when Arvind is the loudest complainer; when actually all agree it says nothing and it is just W8 itself.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I recall the same sort of complaints from Arvind from the NOS1-USB version. So, things get better (like W8 should) but work out the other way.


Summarized, what Arvind describes is :

a. Very much recognizeable from older XXHighEnd versions (0.9z-8) as de facto standard (and including the fatigue Arvind describes elsewhere);
b. Will happen to me just the same once in a while (once per 14 days ?);
c. Is there as the general "tone" most of the days but nothing to be annoyed about because overwhelmed by goodies;
d. Is totally not there at all at rare days.

Peter

[CoenP]

Hi,

You can count me in for not being a happy camper with WIN8. Though the IMDISK improved the sound over plain playing. I did also switch off unused devices in device manager. Maybe I need to revisit the BIOS settings....

The w8 sound is very dense and still alittle "mechanical" especially in the bass. Unconsiously I still start up win7 for ultimate listening.

Regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

Arvind,

There is a thing you could try;

Possibly you are keen on using the remote (which I recall from at least a few weeka ago), so you may try to engage "Shut off ALL Services" and don't use the remote for a test.

Also, and now derived from my own "nylon strings" story, it could be the exact other way around; you already engaged "Shut off ALL Services" but now you can deactivate that. Just that (do not use the remote).
This resembles my "switching on a few things" from that nylon strings story. It thus might help you too.


I know that both suggestions are opposite, but it depends on what your current situation is of course.

Peter

[boleary]

Arvind, it really took me a while to get 9Z-9 on W8 sounding better than my W7 setup. I don't think this will completely solve your problem, but try making the clock res .5 or as low as your system will go. I found that the higher the clock res the brighter or thinner the sound became. Another thing that made a big difference for me was the drive that my music was on. (I have not set up any RAMdisc's yet.) You might try copying a track to the drive that you have XX on and see if that helps. I guess in your setup that would be putting the track on your IMdisc drive that you created for XX.

Don't despair cause you will sort this out, even if that means reverting back to W7!

[listening]

Hi Arvind,

I can easily understand your disappointment - it's a nightmare to get the system right with Windows 8.  The hardest step is to leave behind a wonderful individual sound with Windows 7. We all expected another step in this familiar environment. But it is not there anymore - you have to find the paradise again! Trying hard the last weeks (sqeezing the PC environment, installing a separate mains supply, using shield fabric and more) I'm exploring my system the first time from the ground up. At the moment I'm feeding the Metrum DAC with 20 bit data - as Peter supposed some time ago - and I never expected the improved SQ. Aditionally it was necessary to set  clockres = Nothing and set the right Q5. Actually i have found a new stable environment with beautiful SQ.
So don't give up and try some unconventional things, even if they will appear foolish in the retrospective.

Georg

[PeterSt]

And Arvind - everyone ...

Especially for this topic I forced myself to have an evening with Windows 7 again. Just my normal audio PC as I used it forever and which I was very satisfied with.
Btw, nothing different I already told about in this topic - W7 isn't it anymore, but I wanted to try again just in case ...

All summarized first : This has been a more annoying session than ever with W8. "Ever", because what I heard was in everything, while W8 from the start in January or so always allowed to pick music which didn't annoy and worked for the better only. Not so with W7 as we perceive it today ...

First what occurred was a totally booming bass. I couldn't believe it myself. Checked corners for standing waves to check by my own "measurement" means whether maybe something else had changed, but no standing waves anywhere. Still the bass was booming. And not a little bit ...

Next thing a knew already : the sort of recurring highs which should not be there. Elsewhere I described this as grey, but  now with more Windows 8 (subsequent) experience it comes to me as a repeat of hight frequencies like ringing from a wrong filter means (like not using Arc Prediction but something else - or a normal Sigma Delta based DAC). This is (now suddenly clear to me) where Windows 8 gets its detail from - better separation / accuracy in the high frequencies.

I was not able anymore to "see" better colour in the cymbals. Possibly this was because I was too annoyed, but I actually now heard the same as in Windows 8 (were it for seeking more colour there).

I paused playback at least 15 times to change settings for the better, and somewhere in the middle of that I received a shout from someone in the room "yea, that's not the best album eh !!?". Of course I know this only happens when playback ain't right to begin with. When it is OK all albums are OK no matter the type of music. Of course I didn't tell what I was trying to do, but to me it tells that it was not only me.

I ended with settings which allowed to play the last album with not all that much annoyance, but still thought it was (and has been) a waste of my time of listening nicely to music. That didn't happen anywhere. Too many disturbances and actually too bad sound.

Still it was this I had been completely satisfied with not so long ago. But a sheer booming bass ? unbelievable.
It even occurred to me when being outside the room (say toilet) and there perceiving the over-weight of boom-boom-boom. And then to think that this too is a measure for me (listening outside of the room). Well, I think our brains are not the best in judging things in absolute fashion.

Time alignment

Arvind (but also others), I now recall from your first NOS1-USB experience that I suggested to recheck your time alignment of the speakers (which I know you can adjust). So, when things get more precise, this becomes more important (I hope this is obvious). Windows 8 is a sort of multiple of this AND ... if one thing is super important for perceiving emotion hence "music" it is time alignment of the drivers.

So check that.

Peter

[xp9433]

Windows 8 is a sort of multiple of this AND ... if one thing is super important for perceiving emotion hence "music" it is time alignment of the drivers.

So check that. Peter

Peter, To time alignment add "the same absolute polarity" connection for all speaker drivers in the speaker array. When loudspeakers designers start with time alignment and absolute polarity driver alignment before designing the crossover there is a better chance that "everything" will truly click into place musically.
Frank

[arvind]

Hi guys,

Thank you everyone for making me see the light in the tunnel. I must say that the comraderie in this forum is amazing.

Without any serious changes in the settings, other than changing clock resolution to 0.5ms (thanks Boleary) the SQ magic is back.

I really don't know how, maybe the new OS takes time to settle. I had adjusted the time alignment ever since I changed to W8, so that wasn't new either.

It's still a mystery but in the end its turned out well. I hope it continues this way.

Thanks again everybody.

Regards,

Arvind

[Stanray]

Tonight I took some time to turn some XXHE-knobs in W8, because I wasn't totally satisfied with the W8 sound.

For me me it lacked some "emotion", while being very detailed, open and spacious.
In the end I found that the SQ is very sensitive for the Q5 setting and that Q5=3 is a "no" at this stage.

A Q5 setting of less than 3 brings back the emotion, but I will have to do further listening to be sure.
For now I settled with Q5=2.

Stanley

[CoenP]

Hi,

"Emotion" or "music", these are the things I am lloking for too in win8.
I found that this quality is served by NOT having XXHE on a Ramdisk (or IMdisk) and with a timesres of 1ms. Xxhe is in this case on the c:\ os partition.
When xxhe is on the IM disc crescendos are unlistanable and the sound is reminiscent of a hi res mp3. The higher timeres calmes the sound and causes more "flow".

That is on my system of course.
Unfortunately it is not on par with win7 (yet).

Regards, Coen

[phantomax]

I found that this quality is served by NOT having XXHE on a Ramdisk (or IMdisk)

Totally agree in my system too, Coen. I 've been trying the IMdisk with XXHE and as playback drive and, despite some other problems ( header data not found, sound interruptions and more ) I've found the sound is worse with XXHE in IMDisk and the "magic" is lost.
I've not tried different clock resolution settings for now.

Regards,

Maxi

[CoenP]

Hi,

I made another sep forward to better WIN8 sound by switching PeakExtend to OFF.

This made for a much bigger difference than I can remember from my WIN7 environments. The hypercontrast sound went away together with the sharp silibants and booming lows. Voices and bass sound way more natural now. The "emotion"/"music" quality is also improved.

regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

Please notice :

Although I use the RAMDisk for Playback Drive myself (which is for technical reasons in my case) I never said that this would improve sound. Or deteriorate it. I just don't know.
What I did say though is that running XXHighEnd from the RAMDisk should improve (this is theory only, but often my theories work out.

Peter