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Author Topic: Musings on digitizing vinyl  (Read 48032 times)
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manisandher
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« on: January 21, 2013, 03:41:32 pm »

I want to share my experiences in case anyone else is thinking of doing this.

My little 'studio' is now all set up (see below) and I have to say that early attempts at digitizing vinyl suggest that the effort has been worthwhile. It's probably gross distortion, but there's something about the sound of vinyl that is really, really nice. I'll put some 24/192 and or DSD files up for anyone who's interested at some point.

I'll be using this thread as a bit of a blog, as I'm sure there's still a lot for me to learn. But for now, I'll just list the equipment that's gone into the 'studio':

- sealed and sound-insulated room with semi-Faraday cage (builder's wire mesh used instead of copper plating) and integrated air purifier and ventilation system
- PurePower PP2000 (used in battery mode for turntable only)
- 5KVA balanced transformer (for linear PSs)
- 5KVA balanced transformer (for SMPSs)
- Loricraft vacuum record cleaning machine
- Technics SP10 MKII turntable
- Transfi T3Pro arm
- London Decca Reference cartridge
- Ray Samuels F-117 phono stage
- Pacific Microsonics Model Two (for PCM 24/192)
- Weiss AFI1 (with Paul Hynes linear PS)
- Korg MR1000 (with Paul Hynes linear PS) (for DSD128)
- Tascam DV-RA1000HD
- Berning Siegfried 300B
- AKG K-1000
- Sony PS3 (for SACD rips)

As far as possible, all power supplies sit outside the studio.

More posts later...

Mani.


* Studio.jpg (180.57 KB, 778x581 - viewed 1215 times.)
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 07:08:29 pm »

Quote
I'll put some 24/192 and or DSD files up for anyone who's interested at some point.

Can't wait!

The "studio" looks very impressive; hope the results exceed expectations.
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PeterSt
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 08:18:26 pm »

Nice Mani !

Quote
As far as possible, all power supplies sit outside the studio.

And no speakers in there !
Well, you will understand ...

Peter
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A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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CoenP
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 11:00:45 am »

That's one impressive setup!

I am looking forward to your postings of the results. Happy

Any reason not to do the phono eq in the digital domain? (I.e.http://www.stereophile.com/phonopreamps/pure_vinyl_lp_recording_amp_editing_software/index.html)

Regards, Coen
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[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
manisandher
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 05:31:32 pm »

Haha, this ties in nicely with what I'm doing:

Going through the various paces of streaming, CD spinning and finally vinyl in quick succession had to admit that streaming with XXHighEnd has far more in common with vinyl than CD even when the latter exploits a memory-based transport. The traits we so enjoy with this streaming source like speed and scale are far more present with vinyl than polycarbonate.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/vaessen2/1.html

I've just made three recordings of the 'Dead Can Dance' track, 'Radharc' in 16/44.1, 24/88.2 and 24/176.4 on the PMII. I've compared my files to the 16/44.1 CD rip (same master by the sound of it), and here's what I'm hearing when I play back on the NOS1 with all files upsampled to 705.6 in XX:

Firstly, the CD obviously has a more stable sound, with massive channel separation. But Lisa Gerrard's voice is 'thick' and flat - dull. I saw DCD live in October and can definitely say that she doesn't sound like this.

The 16/44.1 file has a remarkably 'similar' sound to the CD rip, albeit with much diminished channel separation, and approx. 1dB lower volume. IMO it has more rhythm though.

Surprisingly, the 24/88.2 file doesn't sound that much different to the 16/44.1 file. A little more 'holisitc', but a similar sound.

The 24/176.4 file however is fundamentally different, and soooo much closer to how the vinyl sounds. Lisa's voice is now 'delicate'. There's a sweetness and liveliness to the sound that the other files just don't have.

IMO, only the 24/176.4 file played back through XX/NOS1 really sounds identical to the vinyl. This is my subjective opinion, but there is one thing I know for sure: Only at 24/176.4 (and 24/192) is the PMII a truly non-oversampling ADC.

My hypothesis is that any oversampling in the ADC and/or the DAC kills the sound. (It seems the guys are ESS, who produce the Sabre DAC, are onto this too: RMAF 11: Noise Shaping Sigma Delta Based Dacs, Martin Mallison, CTO, ESS Technology).

I'm happy to share these files for anyone to try themselves but am having difficult setting privileges in 'Rapidshare'. Does anyone know of another (easier) way to share them?

Mani.
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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 05:45:59 pm »

Put them to FileMail. That gives 10 downloads. I will be the first.
Haha.

Otherwise DropBox may do the job - today without (e.g. me) needing to install DropBox. May, because it needs I link in here to it to really work. I never tried that myself, but I think I received "links" from others I can use like this.

Btw, for me no other than those 176.4 will be necessary. But then I would be judging the sound to absolute merits, and I think I already know what I will say ("bweh"  Happy).
But then this is not all about me you know ...

Thanks for sharing Mani,
Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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manisandher
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 07:49:11 pm »

Peter, I'm just about to catch a plane but will sort this out at the other end.

Mani.
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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 11:38:06 pm »

I hope these links work...

CD rip: http://rapidshare.com/files/3980571067/Dead%20Can%20Dance%20-%2012%20-%20Radharc.wav

Digitized Vinyl Files

16/44.1: http://rapidshare.com/files/2382222736/12.%20Radharc%2016_44.1.wav

24/88.2: http://rapidshare.com/files/1295849148/12.%20Radharc%2024_88.2.wav

24/176.4: http://rapidshare.com/files/375223364/12.%20Radharc%2024_176.4.wav

Mani
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2013, 09:05:45 am »

Sorry Mani but the links don´t work.
Maybe using FileMail as Peter suggested https://www.filemail.com/

Juan
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Configuration and Updates in HOW I'VE BUILT MY NEW PC...http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1673.0. This post is very old but maybe someone still find it useful

XXHighEnd: 2.11a. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN/ KS:Phasure NOS1 Out 4.0/ #4 Engine/ Adaptive Mode/ Q1=10, Q3,4,5=1, xQ1=15/ Dev.Buffer: 4096/ ClockRes: 15ms/ Straight Contiguous/ SFS: 0.69 (max 0,69)/ Not Invert/ Phase Alignment Off/ Allow format change/ Decode HDCD/ Playerprio: Low/ ThreadPrio: Real Time/ Scheme: Core 3-5/ UnAttended/ Not Switch during Playback Off/ Playback Drive none/ UnAttended/ Include Garbage Collect/ Copy to XX Drive by standard/ Always clear Proxy before Playback/ Stop Desktop Services/ Stop Remaining Services/ Stop All Services: Off/ Keep LAN Services: On - Persist: Off/ Use Remote Desktop/ Minimize OS/ XTweaks : Balanced Load 35/ Nervous Rate 10/ Cool when Idle -/ Provide Stable Power 0/ Utilize Cores always 1/ Time Performance Index: Optimal / Time Stability: Stable / Arc Prediction/ Number of cores in use: 12 (máx. 6-12)

Music Server PC (W10) totally silent with OS (W10) in SSD and music inside in SSDs - RDC > Ethernet Gigabyte cable 3m > Audio Pc > 1m USB Lush cable directly from the USB3.0 in the motherboard > PHASURE NOS1a-75B-G3 (Driver v1.0.4) 16ms > Blaxius BNC interconnects > Genelec 1037B 3-Way Active speakers with BNC inputs
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 10:38:25 am »

Quote
Sorry Mani but the links don´t work.
Yesterday it was working ok! Maybe a limitation on the number of download's
Johan
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2013, 11:06:27 am »

Something like that. "File owner's public traffic exhausted".

Edit : I think there's a daily limit of 1GB on it. And Johan consumed that. Haha.

Maybe if you put it up as MP3 it works better ?

swoonswoonswoonswoonswoonswoonswoon
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2013, 01:40:04 pm »

Yep, daily limit of 1GB, so just 5 24/176.4 files plus a few of the others.

Mani.
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Office System:
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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 08:27:03 pm »

The 16/44.1 file has a remarkably 'similar' sound to the CD rip... IMO it has more rhythm though.

Here are three different files:
- my 16/44.1 vinyl recording
- an SACD rip (using a PS3 and then converted to 16/44.1 PCM)
- a CD rip

Can you guess which is which?

Mani


* Dynamic Range File 1.jpg (78.31 KB, 900x242 - viewed 884 times.)

* Dynamic Range File 2.jpg (88.99 KB, 900x243 - viewed 986 times.)

* Dynamic Range File 3.jpg (96.69 KB, 900x243 - viewed 1057 times.)
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Main System:
Phasure Mach III (Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, / connected directly to music server / XXHighEnd 2.11 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=10 / xQ1=15 / Q3,4,5=1 / SFS=4.00 / XTweaks = 34, 10, 0, 0, 0 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 15ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 8x Arc Prediction / switch #5 'up/off' / Unattended) mobo USB3 port -> Lush^3 -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3 -> 8m Blaxius^2 -> First Watt F5 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System:
Phasure Stealth II -> Lush^2 -> RME ADI-2 Pro FS R -> Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Marvel horn speakers
CoenP
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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2013, 10:23:12 pm »

The first one looks clipped to me, the last one compressed. The first one obviously having much less dr and level, the last one having the most harmonics.

Pffew, this does not add up. What source could possibly be clipped and low in level at the same time? A bad lp rip? I hold you in higher regard!

Lets give it a shot:
1: cd
2: sacd
3: lp

Regards, Coen
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Settings: Qn: , SFS: , timeres: XT tweaks: , buf: 4096, driver: 8 ms,

Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
manisandher
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2013, 10:36:14 pm »

Thanks Coen. Anyone else want to have a shot?

Mani.
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Main System:
Phasure Mach III (Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, / connected directly to music server / XXHighEnd 2.11 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=10 / xQ1=15 / Q3,4,5=1 / SFS=4.00 / XTweaks = 34, 10, 0, 0, 0 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 15ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 8x Arc Prediction / switch #5 'up/off' / Unattended) mobo USB3 port -> Lush^3 -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3 -> 8m Blaxius^2 -> First Watt F5 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System:
Phasure Stealth II -> Lush^2 -> RME ADI-2 Pro FS R -> Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Marvel horn speakers
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