Phase Alignment sound wise

[Robert]

At this point after finally getting it all to work I have to say I'm a little under whelmed with PA and in fact prefer not to use it.

PA in my system sounds like a filter. I'm much preferring it not engaged. I'm a drummer and cymbals are definitely dull sounding, lack sparkle. Sound stage is reduced the life appears to have gone from the music but it is smoother a bit like some power supply filter effects.

I realise this is early days, but PA needs more work to perfect it. Personally I think people need to tread very carefully trialling this new feature, checking DC is not something some people can do, there are still undiscovered effects of applying PA.

The sound coming from version -z73 is excellent anyway and a huge improvement over -z6. Everything is quicker and definitely less issues with ticks, SFS settings, coverart and xxhighend screen is better.

[PeterSt]

Hi there Robert,

Let me tell you first : you are completely right in your observations. Ehm, well done ?


But if things were only that easy ...

The scenario :

We are both listening in my system to PA On and PA Off. We'd come to the very same conclusion as you just described. Mind you, this is my system, and mainly my DAC is a kind of another beast - but most important is that we come to exactly what you describe.
Also : I am not a drummer, but our son sort of is, and at least I bought him the drum kit several years ago so I can compare with real life. Still we both would come to this conclusion ...

Next I'd go further and show you that even a flagiolette (which are hamonic-wise the most complicated) will show less attack (which hardly is there anyway) with PA engaged.

Hey, we still agree !

But *then* I am going to proove to you by many examples that this attack and of course that freshness on the cymbals is only false. It is (higher frequency) distortion which is oh-so easy to incur for ...

Lastly I would show you how super-easy it is to get back those attacks by means of XXHighEnd settings and when we *now* shut off Phase Alignment all sounds way too fresh and distortion will be profound.

This latter is a story only because I can't proove it by agreement (yet) or advise about XXHighEnd settings. This is because of your other DAC *and* its inherent way of working which puts a layer over things anyway. But let's say that layers can be harmless BUT now we can't talk about the same thing easily (we'll need listening to the same thing both).

So for now I can have one advice only, really :
Keep that PA up for a week or so, maybe dive into XX settings to squeeze out more freshness in general and only after that week (never A-B in between !), switch off PA.
At least in my case I will not be able to listen to it anymore, because I will hear distortion only. That should happen to you too.
In the mean time, of course, without PA you will still perceive more attack from the cymbals. But that is a technical means of listening/judging (which I sure do also) and which by no means will lead to better music through loudspeakers when that part is solved as the only part.


In the end of course it is about what you like best. So, no way I or anyone should hold you back from that. So, above story is only there because I completely agree with you on the out of context facts. This is why you should -just like me- be able to turn it all into the better ...

Haha, that's all.
Thanks !
Peter

[Eric]

Robert,
may I add a little experience from myself.
When I play with my preamp removed from the audiochain, the (positive) effect with 09-z7 and PA engaged is much bigger than without PA.
Furthermore, playing in Normal OS is horrible with 09-z7 and PA engaged.
I hope this helps.

Cheers
Eric

[manisandher]

In my case, PA(-) sounds flatter and duller than without PA - just as you describe. But PA(+) gives me a better sound than I've ever had before.

Try both - and + before making a judgement on PA. If after that you still prefer the sound without PA, then cool.

Interestingly, my single-ended 300B amp shows an identical behaviour pattern - reversing the polarity of the speaker terminals makes it sound way, way more life-like. I've always thought that maybe its inherent harmonic distortion is cancelling that of the speakers' in some way.... but I have no real evidence for this, other than the improvement in sound.

Mani.

[Gerard]

In my case, PA(-) sounds flatter and duller than without PA - just as you describe. But PA(+) gives me a better sound than I've ever had before.

Try both - and + before making a judgement on PA. If after that you still prefer the sound without PA, then cool.

Interestingly, my single-ended 300B amp shows an identical behaviour pattern - reversing the polarity of the speaker terminals makes it sound way, way more life-like. I've always thought that maybe its inherent harmonic distortion is cancelling that of the speakers' in some way.... but I have no real evidence for this, other than the improvement in sound.

Mani.

Hey Mani,

That + you talk about is that with of without IPASE engaged?

thanx

 

[CoenP]

Fwiw,

I injected a little zest into my setup again by lowering the buffers on XX side (see my sig). I have a NOS1 though.

I feel I never had better digital in my home, especially on the timing (musicality) side ,which I value highly. This fell into place with the low buffers and dc blocking cap on the poweramp input (no preamp).

Regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

Hey Coen,

And you don't have any ticks etc. from Phase Alignment with these settings ?

ltcy=2048; q1, q1fact =1; appt scheme: 3; sfs =8; ph alignm=on PAx=0 (-);

Thanks,
Peter

[phantomax]

Probably I am off topic  but I think this post can be included here. Before the z7 version I used to identify the disc folders with a symbol "&" when the music sounded better with phase invert. This was for time save. Here we have a popular adage I'll try to translate : "We are spending the wine in tastings" (similar in other countries for sure). The wine here is time, and  time is gold.

Now things are getting more complex. Even that classification is no valid anymore because the phase behaviour seems to be different. So I am going to identify the folders again with another symbols depending of which PA settings sound better. Although this is very tedious I think It's worth the effort.

Peter, you are going to kill me to ask for that, but it would be nice to implement some kind of visual feature
like the color code for the different music formats in order to remember the best PA settings for each folder. 


Best regards

Maxi

[PeterSt]

Well, if you watch closely to what's said in this topic, you ca see coming what I thought myself only 3 or 4 days back : remember those settings per album (or track) and auto-apply them later ...

This is something I brought up some longer time ago, but back then it seemed to me that this was a wrong path to follow. But today ? today it looks like it is unavoidable that the one album needs other settings as the other to sound at its best.

But the major problem :

At any next XXHighEnd version those settings should be invalidated. Or, "the setting involved" (ie the one which now sounds different) should be. And *now* suddenly it won't be a functionality easy to implement ...

Anyway I hear you ...
Peter

[CoenP]

Hey Coen,

And you don't have any ticks etc. from Phase Alignment with these settings ?

ltcy=2048; q1, q1fact =1; appt scheme: 3; sfs =8; ph alignm=on PAx=0 (-);

Thanks,
Peter

Nope, not any that I remarked anyway.

Regards, Coen

[phantomax]

Hello Peter,

I asked you for a visual feature to remind the best PA settings for a particular folder but  now I think  it's a nonsense because it's  simpler to change the folder icon with another one easy to detect  in the left XXHE root panel and that's it. I totally agree that the other solution has to be too complicated and it would create confusion in the long term.

Regards
Maxi

[manisandher]

PA in my system sounds like a filter. I'm much preferring it not engaged. I'm a drummer and cymbals are definitely dull sounding, lack sparkle. Sound stage is reduced the life appears to have gone from the music but it is smoother a bit like some power supply filter effects.

But *then* I am going to proove to you by many examples that this attack and of course that freshness on the cymbals is only false. It is (higher frequency) distortion which is oh-so easy to incur for ...

I have to say that Robo's description of PA(-) is spot on. So, this is down to reduced distortion, is it?

I've just compared no-PA, PA(-) and PA(+) again and I'd describe the differences as:

1. no PA - nice, but flat (in comparison to 3.)
2. PA(-) - very easy on the ear, but duller than 1.
3. PA(+) - exciting and dynamic with loads of 'sparkle', but has a 'hollow' sort of sound, a reduced low end and is perhaps fatiguing over time

FYI, PA(-) sounds a bit like PA(+) if I reverse the polarity of the speaker cables at both ends... which I guess is to be expected, no?

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani,

FYI, PA(-) sounds a bit like PA(+) if I reverse the polarity of the speaker cables at both ends... which I guess is to be expected, no?

Correct.

3. PA(+) - exciting and dynamic with loads of 'sparkle', but has a 'hollow' sort of sound, a reduced low end

This is logic. The effect would come down to using reversed Absolute Phase but more "absolute". So, while the correct Absolute Phase depends on many connections and processes in the chain (of at least the recording), and one voice being OK for it while the other is reversed, PA+ (with normal Absolute Phase) would always incur for the wrong effect which officially *is* hollow.

But it is you who wanted PA+ back ... haha
It really can't be right. You may like it, but it can't be right.

Peter

[manisandher]

But it is you who wanted PA+ back ... haha
It really can't be right. You may like it, but it can't be right.

The whole thing's a moving target. When PA was first introduced, most of us were on high SFSs and we didn't have XTweaks. I can't remember the state of my hardware, but I'm sure it was different. But certainly, PA(-) just sounded too dull.

But today, I can get a very nice sound out of PA(-). In comparison to PA(+), it still sounds 'dull', but way more 'natural'. This is especially true with female voices.

I started using PA(-) when you removed PA(+) as an option. Even though PA(+) is back, I will continue with PA(-).

Mani

Edit: When Paul visited, we used PA(-) exclusively.

[Jud]

But today, I can get a very nice sound out of PA(-). In comparison to PA(+), it still sounds 'dull', but way more 'natural'. This is especially true with female voices.


Mani

Maybe a situation in which longer term listening to one mode rather than A/Bing may give a truer picture.  If one is bright, no matter whether correct or due to distortion, the other will surely sound dull in a rapid comparison.  Try each for a while on its own merits, and pay no attention to "audiophile" stuff.  (I always express this as "No one ever came out of a Pavarotti recital raving about the bass response and soundstage.")  See what you like better then.