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Author Topic: Tube rolling for my MC 2301  (Read 26203 times)
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praphan
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« on: July 10, 2012, 08:52:35 am »

Hello everyone,

This is for the tube guys. As you can see in my sig, I am tube addicted. I have happily been running MC 2301 monoblocks each powered by 8x KT88 for two years. Never monitored the run time by any sort of timer but guess those stock Svetlana Winged-C KT88 tubes have logged almost 1,000 hours.

While waiting for the Nobel version of XXHE, I think I would better prepare my amps for a new quantum leap. I have already got my new Mullard 12AT7s to replace those 4 stock driver tubes. Now the hard part is to choose the best fit for power tubes. After leveraging google, it boils down to two options ie. (a) Genelux Gold Lion KT88 reissue produced by Russian, New Sensor Corp or (b) chinese made Shuguang KT88-Z treasure premium. (b) the black tube is 65% more expensive.

Any thought and recommendation are appreciated.
Thanks a lot
Praphan
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XX 0.9z-8-3a : KS Engine 4 "Adaptive"; DB = 4096; APx16; Q1/2/3/4/5 = 14x1/0/0/0/0; No Appointment/low/real time; CR = 0.5 ms; XTweaks Ultimate; SC; SFS= 120/120 ; allow format change; unattended ; min OS and stop "all" services; normalized volume usually played at -15db ;  peak extension on ; PA off

Signal chain: 24/786 NOS1 USB; 16 ms buffer on driver 1.0.2 => Valhalla XLR IC = > McIntosh 2301 tube monoblocks => Purist Dominus spk cable => B&W 802 D
Eric
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 09:05:05 am »

Dear Praphan,

usually it takes quite some time to get used to a change in your system. In addition, you might discover that some other tweaks are beneficial(cables, cones etc.). Or rather removing existing tweaks.
So my recommendation would be to wait for XXHE Noble and first get used to that, before implementing other changes. This strategy would give you the opportunity to experience the effect of XXHE Noble. 

Cheers
Eric
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3.2GHz CPU, 8GB RAM, XXHE 1.186a, W7x64 SP1 Ultimate on 2.5" 10Krpm SATAII spinning disk, 8GB RAM / KS:Phasure NOS1 Out 4.0 / #4 Engine / Adaptive / Buffer 4096 / ClockRes 1ms/ Stop All Services / Monitor Off / SFS = 0.4 / not Invert / No XTweaks / Playback Drive = External USB3 (USB powered) HDD / Unattended/ Minimize OS / Peak Ext / ArcPredict / PA- / Q1,-,3,4,5=14,-,0,0,0
Control Panel: Sample Rate: 352.800kHz/ USB Buffer Size: 8ms
Amps: BD-Design bridged Gainclones
PeterSt
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 09:16:49 am »

I sadly have nothing useful to contribute.
But I wanted to say I like "XXHE Noble". Still smiling ...
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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s_chris
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 10:32:42 am »

Hi Praphan,

the psvane version of shuguang kt88 sounds  good.
I tested several version of 211, 845. All sound good, sometimes better than nos tubes.
my experince is that they have shorter lifetime than nos or other shuguang tubes, but sound is really good.
regards chris
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CoenP
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 10:49:08 am »

Hi,

I would check out the rap on the Electro Harmonix KT90 and Chinese or Russian KT120.

Seems to be a wonderfull sounding direct replacements for the KT88/6550.

regards, Coen
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Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 12:51:36 pm »

Hi praphan,

I don't play in this league  Grin  but are using a small amp with switching power supply. Tried a lot of tube rolling but found out that the most critical part seems to be the quality of the power supply. The differences were small when using my amp, which is modded heavily in the signal path. Using the same tubes in amps with conventional tube power supply guides to big sonic differences between the tubes. Maybe there is a replacement for the classic Macintosh power supply?

Regards,
Georg
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USB3 from MoBo -> 2m Belkin -> Intona (Standard) with external power supply -> Clairixia cable
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arvind
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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 03:10:20 pm »

I have been using the CAT JL3 tube amps for many years. Initially they were supplied with 16 X 6550 Svetlana tubes. Over a year back CAT decided to change to Tungsol KT 120 tubes. I have been using them since. Sonically there is no difference but i am expecting longer life, only time will tell.

Arvind
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praphan
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 06:10:36 pm »

I sadly have nothing useful to contribute.
But I wanted to say I like "XXHE Noble". Still smiling ...

Hi Peter,

I am sure all of us here will be happy with Nobel XXHE. Still waiting ...  waiting and waiting........

 whistle

thanks,
Praphan
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PC: Asus X58 chipset M/B; Seasonic 850W PSU; i7 970 12 threads (HT=on); ATI HD 5770; Zalman Reserator water cooling, 24GB RAM, Plextor PX230A drive ; W7 Pro 64bit plain SP1 (no further update) and XXHE on Velociraptor; music on Sata 3 2 TB HDD; WD5003ABYX sits on Thermaltake USB3 dock as playback drive; Star Tech PCIe USB3 card

XX 0.9z-8-3a : KS Engine 4 "Adaptive"; DB = 4096; APx16; Q1/2/3/4/5 = 14x1/0/0/0/0; No Appointment/low/real time; CR = 0.5 ms; XTweaks Ultimate; SC; SFS= 120/120 ; allow format change; unattended ; min OS and stop "all" services; normalized volume usually played at -15db ;  peak extension on ; PA off

Signal chain: 24/786 NOS1 USB; 16 ms buffer on driver 1.0.2 => Valhalla XLR IC = > McIntosh 2301 tube monoblocks => Purist Dominus spk cable => B&W 802 D
praphan
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 06:20:01 pm »

Hi,

I would check out the rap on the Electro Harmonix KT90 and Chinese or Russian KT120.

Seems to be a wonderfull sounding direct replacements for the KT88/6550.

regards, Coen

Hello Coen,

Thanks for your advice.

However, folk on AA forum (Audio Aficionado) once wrote to Mc guy about KT90/ KT120. Below was the story:

Jeff,

I checked with Ron Cornelius (McIntosh) awhile ago regarding these so-called drop in replacements for the KT88/6550 in a McIntosh amp & here is his email reply:

"We do not make an amp designed for this 120 tube, so no. With the heater current it draws I can guarantee it will damage our amps. It is NOT of the 6550- KT88 design although it may work fine in an amp designed for it."

Thanks again,
Ron Cornelius


Heed the warning (for McIntosh amps anyway).
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PC: Asus X58 chipset M/B; Seasonic 850W PSU; i7 970 12 threads (HT=on); ATI HD 5770; Zalman Reserator water cooling, 24GB RAM, Plextor PX230A drive ; W7 Pro 64bit plain SP1 (no further update) and XXHE on Velociraptor; music on Sata 3 2 TB HDD; WD5003ABYX sits on Thermaltake USB3 dock as playback drive; Star Tech PCIe USB3 card

XX 0.9z-8-3a : KS Engine 4 "Adaptive"; DB = 4096; APx16; Q1/2/3/4/5 = 14x1/0/0/0/0; No Appointment/low/real time; CR = 0.5 ms; XTweaks Ultimate; SC; SFS= 120/120 ; allow format change; unattended ; min OS and stop "all" services; normalized volume usually played at -15db ;  peak extension on ; PA off

Signal chain: 24/786 NOS1 USB; 16 ms buffer on driver 1.0.2 => Valhalla XLR IC = > McIntosh 2301 tube monoblocks => Purist Dominus spk cable => B&W 802 D
praphan
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 06:37:52 pm »

Hi Praphan,

the psvane version of shuguang kt88 sounds  good.
I tested several version of 211, 845. All sound good, sometimes better than nos tubes.
my experince is that they have shorter lifetime than nos or other shuguang tubes, but sound is really good.
regards chris

Hi Chris,

I am also looking at Psvane too.

Sounds like Grant Fidelity broke up with Shuguang and then was instrumental to forming a venture capital to take over another Chinese tube factory and develop the Psvane line. I suspect that the materials and know how on tube production are very similar to that of Shuguang since they have Shuguang's ex-R&D team. But I am not quite sure on the workmanship compared to Shuguang whose workers are working there for 10-20 years.

Psvane is trying to position their products in the top-end market with premium pricing. A matched quad of KT88 T series is US 500. I need 4 quad. Way too expensive for rolling without sufficient positive testimonials.

Thanks and regards,
Praphan
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PC: Asus X58 chipset M/B; Seasonic 850W PSU; i7 970 12 threads (HT=on); ATI HD 5770; Zalman Reserator water cooling, 24GB RAM, Plextor PX230A drive ; W7 Pro 64bit plain SP1 (no further update) and XXHE on Velociraptor; music on Sata 3 2 TB HDD; WD5003ABYX sits on Thermaltake USB3 dock as playback drive; Star Tech PCIe USB3 card

XX 0.9z-8-3a : KS Engine 4 "Adaptive"; DB = 4096; APx16; Q1/2/3/4/5 = 14x1/0/0/0/0; No Appointment/low/real time; CR = 0.5 ms; XTweaks Ultimate; SC; SFS= 120/120 ; allow format change; unattended ; min OS and stop "all" services; normalized volume usually played at -15db ;  peak extension on ; PA off

Signal chain: 24/786 NOS1 USB; 16 ms buffer on driver 1.0.2 => Valhalla XLR IC = > McIntosh 2301 tube monoblocks => Purist Dominus spk cable => B&W 802 D
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 06:50:17 pm »

Hi praphan,

 Maybe there is a replacement for the classic Macintosh power supply?

Regards,
Georg

Georg hi,

Umhhh .... interesting. But Mc offers 3 year warranty. Mine are just 2 years. I would not touch their hardware which will effectively void the warranty.

Thanks and regards
Praphan
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PC: Asus X58 chipset M/B; Seasonic 850W PSU; i7 970 12 threads (HT=on); ATI HD 5770; Zalman Reserator water cooling, 24GB RAM, Plextor PX230A drive ; W7 Pro 64bit plain SP1 (no further update) and XXHE on Velociraptor; music on Sata 3 2 TB HDD; WD5003ABYX sits on Thermaltake USB3 dock as playback drive; Star Tech PCIe USB3 card

XX 0.9z-8-3a : KS Engine 4 "Adaptive"; DB = 4096; APx16; Q1/2/3/4/5 = 14x1/0/0/0/0; No Appointment/low/real time; CR = 0.5 ms; XTweaks Ultimate; SC; SFS= 120/120 ; allow format change; unattended ; min OS and stop "all" services; normalized volume usually played at -15db ;  peak extension on ; PA off

Signal chain: 24/786 NOS1 USB; 16 ms buffer on driver 1.0.2 => Valhalla XLR IC = > McIntosh 2301 tube monoblocks => Purist Dominus spk cable => B&W 802 D
praphan
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 06:56:54 pm »

Dear Praphan,

usually it takes quite some time to get used to a change in your system. In addition, you might discover that some other tweaks are beneficial(cables, cones etc.). Or rather removing existing tweaks.
So my recommendation would be to wait for XXHE Noble and first get used to that, before implementing other changes. This strategy would give you the opportunity to experience the effect of XXHE Noble. 

Cheers
Eric

Eric hi,

I fully agree with you that sonic shift as a result of tube change can be subjective. I should stay put with my existing tubes until my ears are well adjusted to the Nobel XXHE. Then I can be in a better position to decide on tube change.

However, I will definitely roll new power tubes and later report my findings here again.

Thanks,
Praphan
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PC: Asus X58 chipset M/B; Seasonic 850W PSU; i7 970 12 threads (HT=on); ATI HD 5770; Zalman Reserator water cooling, 24GB RAM, Plextor PX230A drive ; W7 Pro 64bit plain SP1 (no further update) and XXHE on Velociraptor; music on Sata 3 2 TB HDD; WD5003ABYX sits on Thermaltake USB3 dock as playback drive; Star Tech PCIe USB3 card

XX 0.9z-8-3a : KS Engine 4 "Adaptive"; DB = 4096; APx16; Q1/2/3/4/5 = 14x1/0/0/0/0; No Appointment/low/real time; CR = 0.5 ms; XTweaks Ultimate; SC; SFS= 120/120 ; allow format change; unattended ; min OS and stop "all" services; normalized volume usually played at -15db ;  peak extension on ; PA off

Signal chain: 24/786 NOS1 USB; 16 ms buffer on driver 1.0.2 => Valhalla XLR IC = > McIntosh 2301 tube monoblocks => Purist Dominus spk cable => B&W 802 D
Eric
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 06:57:33 pm »

Notice the difference:
Nobel   vs.   Noble

It might have escaped your attention Cool

Cheers
Eric
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Control Panel: Sample Rate: 352.800kHz/ USB Buffer Size: 8ms
Amps: BD-Design bridged Gainclones
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 07:27:04 pm »

Eric hi,

Who knows ? One day we will withness Peter heading to Oslo for a prize !

Cheers!
Praphan
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PC: Asus X58 chipset M/B; Seasonic 850W PSU; i7 970 12 threads (HT=on); ATI HD 5770; Zalman Reserator water cooling, 24GB RAM, Plextor PX230A drive ; W7 Pro 64bit plain SP1 (no further update) and XXHE on Velociraptor; music on Sata 3 2 TB HDD; WD5003ABYX sits on Thermaltake USB3 dock as playback drive; Star Tech PCIe USB3 card

XX 0.9z-8-3a : KS Engine 4 "Adaptive"; DB = 4096; APx16; Q1/2/3/4/5 = 14x1/0/0/0/0; No Appointment/low/real time; CR = 0.5 ms; XTweaks Ultimate; SC; SFS= 120/120 ; allow format change; unattended ; min OS and stop "all" services; normalized volume usually played at -15db ;  peak extension on ; PA off

Signal chain: 24/786 NOS1 USB; 16 ms buffer on driver 1.0.2 => Valhalla XLR IC = > McIntosh 2301 tube monoblocks => Purist Dominus spk cable => B&W 802 D
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 07:42:22 pm »

Nobel or Noble (the latter shows some more decency for a self-election of a Nobel Prize) - when you engage 0.9z-7 for the first time, at least one of your tubes will blow anyway.

Haha.
But I hope that doesn't happen.
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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