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Author Topic: Transformers, monitors and what not (s*cks)  (Read 9369 times)
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PeterSt
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« on: June 21, 2012, 10:00:24 am »

Not exactly a "source related" subject, but it has to go somewhere, so I thought to put it in here.

As you know quite many things I discover by accident. That they are "discovered" as such will be because I dive into whatever it is, and try to see merits. This is such a case;

For some days now I have a noise in the room. What noise ? well, the noise of too high (rev) running fans from my audio PC. Such a fairly slowly resonating noise which feels like air bouncing into itself, that influencing the number of revolutions of the fans. Fairly low pitched.
All logical, because the cooling fins of my audio PC are stuffed with dust. So, time to clean it (which must happen each 6 months or so).

That is what I thought ...

At testing the new prototype XXHighEnd audio machine (Re: CPU considerations besides that machine needing a connection to the mains, there's also a monitor involved. This is a flatscreen with with an outboard switching PSU where a normal mains cord comes out to stuff into the wall outlet.
Knowing that monitors can be a real pain in creating groundloops (just measure what happens to your Protective Earth (base) potential somehow I didn't trust this monitor. Anyway, it found its ways to the mains to a normal house ring, and the prototype audio machine went into there as well. The DAC is in a separate audio ring with different earth pin (these things are important).

Already yesterday I found the noise becoming unbearable, especially while I was working on the being completely silent of the prototype machine. But okay, cleaning jobs are always for "tomorrow" and so I let it be.

Not being at location, I just received a call. "Hey, you remember that I told you yesterday that something is humming ?" yea yea, I told you, that PC needs cleaning. "No, it is your amps !".

Huh !?

Next a great gig happened, because someone out there thought to lay the phone on one of the amps and that really works like a nice microphone. Ouch, that sounded dangerous ! A firm rattle of 50Hz (we have 50Hz mains overhere). Next I was told that the whole amp was vibrating.

Huh !?Huh !?

The amp of the other channel - same thing. Not as loud, but the very same thing. It can go away for a few seconds and come back. That resonating noise I tried to describe.

WTF !

Well, WTF ! this and WTF ! that, I don't know yet. All I know is that I immediately had that monitor in my mind, and after trying out a few other things on purpose at first, indeed when the monitor cord was pulled out of the outlet, things went quiet again.

While this post merely is a first attempt to let you improve your systems, it has a reason that I tried a few other things first (like said in the before paragraph). Why ? well, because at putting back in the monitor cable, the sound did NOT come back. This is how ground loops work.

I don't know whether this is something new, but of course it is known that transformers can hum/rattle (on the mains frequency). So, that it is groundloop impeded could be a new thing, or in other words : that you can get rid of it without a new amp (design) could be new.

The thing is so hefty for its vibrating that it looks completely dangerous. But, the one amp was less severe on it than the other. What about yours ? or what about my own when things look all right while it still is not (like it being inaudible, not being able to feel it, but still happening at a lower level ?).

Here is your warning (and NEVER forget it !) :

Already in the first 10 seconds the sound had more snap to it, and somehow B.B. King was so much present in the room. Hard to describe. But further down the line the real change became clear : slam, slam and more slam. I even went as far as stating "now *this* is a nice dance track", while I don't like dance at all and whatever it was is categorized under Lounge here. Completely crazy.

Oh, is that so Peter ? well done then.
But you must be on the wrong track with it, right ?
You should at least have connected that prototype machine the very same way as your normal audio PC. Use the same keyboard, the same mouse and especially the same monitor. All those may s*ck to begin with and may need explicit investigation so that part is for the better and not for the worse. But the least you should recognize, Peter, is that you are comparing apples to oranges now.

Oh sh*t. Where does this end ?


PS: None of this is audible through the speakers as rattle or hum.
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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stefanobilliani
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2012, 01:44:00 pm »

Yeah , that is the nature of ground loops , you don't need the hum at the speakers to recognize it .

I will investigate also to my monitor , or build myself a dedicated ps for it ... The major problem is that we are not able in pratical to modify the PC grounding scheme (imo) or at least that would be too dangerous to do .Well not so much for the PS , but more for the MOBO ( and I would know what to do lol )  But many things here are depending on other things ; cables ... amps ...
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May 27 -2013 ,  0.9z-9

W8 pro 64bit, UEFI
sata ahci mode .
i7 (8 cores ) 2600k
RAM : 16Gig
XXHE on OS disk
Music on OS disk
Playback drive on USB3 to 4Gig Pendrive
Mobo USB 3 to Oversampling dac at 2X
KS adaptive , ArcPredict  , dev buffer 1024
Q1=8 , Q5=3 , res 1msec
Minimized OS , stop all services
X-tweaks : 45,100,1,1,1, stable , optimal
Disk Utilization : Split File Size: 120 ,max the same as SFS
Memory Organization : Straight Contiguous
CoenP
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2012, 11:12:17 pm »

Interesting stuff as usual.

A 50Hz rattle? So that is originating from the mains and not from the rectification peaks on the secondary, which would have given a rattle of 100Hz.
There must be some dc or ac ground loop created here that saturates the core (toroids are especially sensitive to this). In that case the ac  magnetic fields stray out and can cause movement of magnetic parts causing the hum (at a 50Hz pace). I allways thought the saturation was caused by contact-rectified switching HF on the mains, but then you would have noticed it again on the second pass.

Very hard to figure out what ac loops do in this case without a proper amp and connection scheme. Do your amps have a dc blocker?

Regards, Coen
Logged

Settings: Qn: , SFS: , timeres: XT tweaks: , buf: 4096, driver: 8 ms,

Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
PeterSt
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2012, 08:35:20 am »

All needs the experience of at leat one time, and this one was new for me. But With a Little Help from My Friends it is my conclusion that indeed it must be DC drooping into my mains (I didn't even measure it, but it seems clear now).

But now watch the fun of observing things, up to even explicitily writing down "thoughts only" like I did yesterday :

Quote
Such a fairly slowly resonating noise which feels like air bouncing into itself, that influencing the number of revolutions of the fans. Fairly low pitched.

I also talked about ground loops because reconnecting the monitor didn't let it come back (the sequence of connecting may/will change ground loops). But this was a wrong conclusion, because diving into it further made me conclude that it definitely was the prototype PC doing it.

Now on to the fun about the above quote : it *is* most probably a fan doing it, although this is hard to proove. That is, no cpu fan or chassis fan causes it (they were all shut off (not too long Happy), which leaves the PSU fan. I could try to stop that too, but it's a moot thing because it will be the PSU anyway. And, since I expect this to be PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) influence, it may even be tough to stop a fan while the pulses continue (or tear the whole PSU apart). All moot, because yet another PSU is coming up.
If it is not the PSU fan it can also be just a poor AC->DC design of the PSU, but this is more hard to believe because of that resonating noise (but I guess it still can be that because of the sines being out of sine shape (not around 0 anymore) and this within itself creates a "recurring sequence" or frequency).

But if I am right that it is PWM-fan impeded, we now have the fun of hearing a fan acoustically through a transformer. Nice.
Especially nice because this is to be the most quiet (actively cooled) PSU available at this time. Well, tests can't test all if course ... swoon

So, fun this, fun that, and my whole day is full of fun. This is emphazised by this monitor I didn't trust which by now is broken because of probably one time too many pulling the plug from the mains while it was on.

The moral of the whole story didn't change;
When I wouldn't have known that my amps are acoustically dead quiet (with indeed toroids in there) I would have lived with it if only the noise would have been bearable (which it was not). I may never have found out that it's really a PC incurring for it. So all remains the same : you out there may have this too and you won't know it. But you can bet it's not the best for your sound. All it takes is one of such a PC somewhere hooked on to your mains. The kid's new PC for example.

No, I don't use DC blocking in the amps (and never will I guess).

Peter
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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CoenP
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2012, 12:15:56 pm »

Dc is a bitch for linear supplies. With all this switching around these days it is hard to avoid. No wonder people like gear with double C-core or R-core transformers (those are airgapped).

Maybe you can control the fan in  voltage mode and have a different current draw from the psu.

regards, Coen
 
Logged

Settings: Qn: , SFS: , timeres: XT tweaks: , buf: 4096, driver: 8 ms,

Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
stefanobilliani
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2012, 04:14:10 pm »

As and example , I very often put thermistor in the mains ,in my amps and sources ,  and it works for me . Did today for the monitor and the pc PSU.
CL-60 I have got them from Allied Elect.


* cl60stm.jpg (4.76 KB, 263x192 - viewed 781 times.)
Logged

May 27 -2013 ,  0.9z-9

W8 pro 64bit, UEFI
sata ahci mode .
i7 (8 cores ) 2600k
RAM : 16Gig
XXHE on OS disk
Music on OS disk
Playback drive on USB3 to 4Gig Pendrive
Mobo USB 3 to Oversampling dac at 2X
KS adaptive , ArcPredict  , dev buffer 1024
Q1=8 , Q5=3 , res 1msec
Minimized OS , stop all services
X-tweaks : 45,100,1,1,1, stable , optimal
Disk Utilization : Split File Size: 120 ,max the same as SFS
Memory Organization : Straight Contiguous
Pages: [1]
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