Problem using XXHighEnd with Terratec Aueron 7.1 Space

[GerardA]

Hi Peter,

I thought I had the same problem with my Terratec phase 24FW external soundcard connected to an acer 5920g laptop.
Engine 3 on Vista gave the same two messages.
But since yesterday (9t5) I don't get the message about the samplerate anymore and it is now possible to use engine 3,
although not in exclusive mode.
Did you change the program or did I do something more or less by accident?

BTW. This is a Firewire-box and it is not possible for a program to change the samplerate. This is done in the Terratec-controlpanel.
In the vista soundproperties it says 44khz/24bits and exclusive mode allowed.
It is not in exclusive mode though.

When I was writing this message vista shut down for an automatic update and after that xx does not startup anymore.
Let me try to solve this first. Any Idea? (OK already solved, it stayed in the tray and could only be maximized)

[PeterSt]

Actually, yes, I changed something ! When I read this at first (yesterday) I wasn't aware of it, but today reading this again it sprung to my mind that I have been working on support for 24 bits. So, what I did was actually adjusting the program with some debug "enhancements" and found quite another problem so I quit that project for a while, but forgot to remove that debug code. Actually this is interesting ...

What I found that, in fact, 24 bits is already supported. Mind you, for selecting the device, and NOT for putting through 24 bits per sample (per channel). Now, for you -and judging- a bit background on this :

In the process of getting the first steps of 24 bit to work I recognized that there would be no real reason that 24 bits would be hold back for Engine#1. So, that should just work. However -and this is as hard to understand as it is to explain- there is no way it can be checked whether this really works. Keep in mind : Engine#1. Why ? well, because Vista will ALWAYS resample to the rate you set in the Advanced Properties of the audio interface; set it to 44100/24 and it will do just that (even when 96/24 material is fed), and set it to 96000/24 it will do just that again (even when 44100/16 is fed). Please read the before carefully.

From the above follows, that if Engine#1 would not support 96/24, and knowing that if you do not set the properties to 96/24 it would not output 96/24 anyway, it works the other way around just the same : feed with 44100, but since you set the properties to 96000 it would output that.
No way to check the reality of it, unless you could hear it by the better quality, which is a problem by itself when you don't have the reference yet, like me.

Engine#1 will not play Exclusive, and it will not play bit perfect.

Where above leads to nothing, and thus not having a reference to check either, there is one solution only : use Engine#3. Now here I have another problem, which may be a problem of my setup; dunno yet, but for others it might be something to check and report back to me :

My audio card supports 96/24 (and 192/24);
When -outside of any player- I use the testbutton (see screen copy below) I receive the message that the audio device is in use. Mind you, it is not.

Sidenote : With Engine#3 -whatever is set in those properties- does nothing, except for the neccessary ticking of the two checkboxes (see screen copy again).

I can be fairly sure though, that when the test tone (at clicking that test button) does not sound, Engine#3 will not be able to attach to the audio device similarly. Don't get confused now : ... which says nothing much about Engine#1 being able to connect to the same samplerate / bit depth, because then it goes through the mixer. On the other hand, when Engine#1 plays through the setting (like 96/24) you can be sure that the audio device is capable, like mind officially is.

Now comes the strange part, 95% leading to a bug in Vista :
My test tone gives an error at 96/24, unjustified;
When I now ge back to first 44100/16 try the test tone (ok !), then to 44100/24 (ok !), *then* go to 96/24, the test tone does work.

This doesn't help for Engine#3 then working. However, I can imagine that if I go the same route in the software at assigning the device (first 44100 etc.) then maybe it works too.
It is here where I quit that little project because I'd say I'm too much depending on my own setup, and it might not be a Vista bug but a driver problem in my audio card. IOW, if it helps me, it wouldn't help you.

In all means do note : currently Engine#3 cannot perform 24 bit playback, because the bits just aren't provided by me. So there's no need to try whatever with Engine#3. What you could try though -and helping us with it- is trying the test tone procedure as described, and tell me whether it's different with you, or maybe the same.
If it's the same I could try to setup the same route in software, *then* add the 24 bit support, and then we might have it working.

So all 'n all, and maybe off topic, when I started working on 24 bit support, it seems that a Vista bug just does not allow 24 bit in Exclusive Mode. If that's true we're stuck. Together with that, I fully DIStrust Engine#1 really working in 96/24, no matter you feed 96/24 and no matter the output is 96/24. If you ask me, it (Vista) first samples back to 44100.

[GerardA]

That's good to hear. Then there may be some logic to what is happening.
What I found out too was that at first (eng#3) the laptopvolumecontrol did not react, only the terratecvolume worked. After checking a half hour later the laptop/windows volume worked again.
So maybe there was something a little bit exclusive happening.(With Terratec asio drivers I get this behavior too, so maybe this is a Terratec feature?)
I'll try to do later today what you suggest.
What worked too is that if I set eng#3 to upsample I get the message about the samplerate, if I put the terratec to 88 khz I don't get the message. If I turn off the upsampling the message is back.
So there must be some communication, I dont know if I really get what I expect 44, 88 or 96 though.

About the upsampling I wondered why you put double and upsampling seperately, isn't always the combination preferable?
And maybe it is possible then to make the samplerate (and bitdepth) user-selectable?

Although it is not exclusively working all the controls work so I can test the differences, that is a big step forward!
Also it looks like the program is more stable now.

[PeterSt]

And maybe it is possible then to make the samplerate (and bitdepth) user-selectable?

Of course you are right. But please keep in mind, so far "officially" no other source (!) than 44100/16 is supported; that Engine#1 accepts more is not by explicit design. IOW, when 96 (88.2) is officially supported as source, those options will be there (I'm not sure what the conditions will be, but I think an example would be downrezzing to 44.1/16 when the source is e.g. 88.2/16 or /24 because your soundcard can't handle more).

About the upsampling I wondered why you put double and upsampling seperately, isn't always the combination preferable?

Although I can imagine the logic you see, no. Double -as how I applied it- eliminates jitter, and Upsampling theoretically adds it again (read : does not eliminate it), but adds perceived resolution.
Although I never try it anymore, in the beginning of Engine#3's life it was very clear that Doubling was by far the most dynamiccally of them all. It was even too much. If all is right, you should be able to perceive that with Unattended Playback, Q1 = 14, No Invert and no Core Appointment. The only difference with the early days of Engine#3 would be the Priority Settings, which cannot be related to any of todays settings.

Awaitening your results !
Peter

[GerardA]

OK there is some consistency!
When I (re)start the laptop the samplerate is set to the one I used before I shut down.
This was 88 and I could go to the advanced settings and push the testbutton-> NO SOUND.
Then I changed the samplerate in the Terrateccontrolpanel (In windows not possible) to 96
and then there was no advanced settings but in the rightmouse-menu I could test and get a sound!
The same for 44. Then back to 88, in the advanced settings it was now possible to get a sound.
So only for 88 I get the advanced settings and can set exclusive mode on, but this is not working (24bit?).
When I change in TT-control to 44 and restart the laptop I get the advanced settingstab only for 44.
Now I have to change again before I get a testsound.

Well I hope this will give you the information to make your program perfect!
As I understand you correctly the exclusive mode will work if you output 24 bits?

As my suggestion before maybe the possibility for samplerate/bitdepth could first be implemented only for the output. I hope it is easy for you to add some bits and multiply the samplerate?

Some screenshots:

[PeterSt]

As I understand you correctly the exclusive mode will work if you output 24 bits?

Maybe ...

So only for 88 I get the advanced settings and can set exclusive mode on, but this is not working (24bit?).

It depends a bit (hehe) on what you mean by this;
What does it mean in your situation "can set exclusive mode on" ?
Also, what message(s) do you get exactly when you "now" (??) try XX and Engine#3 ? (remember, it can't work with 24 bits, but the (sequence of) message(s) is important ...
Do note that I think you have to try with 24 bit material, because only then Engine#3 will try to make a legal connection to your soundcard which can only do 24 bits (or ?).


PS: Your first screenshot won't come through ... (it might be important for me).

[GerardA]

For exclusive mode i can set the properties on (set the checkbox to 'x'), but I when I start XX I get the message 'Device currently does not suport/allow exclusive use. It will not be bitperfect' I push OK and the music starts to play. Of course only when I set the Terratec to 44k. When I set XX to 'double' I get the message about 'Device can not be allocated because of not matching sample rate'.
When I set the device to 88k it gives the first message again and happily starts to play.
Since I can not set the bitdepth in the Terratec I think it accepts everything you put in it. When I use engine #1 and #2 there is no problem with bitdepth and samplerate.
(The screenshot with number 1 was just a test for the printscreenprogram)
I'll try to find something in 24 bits, would be fun if that works!

[PeterSt]

Ok, thanks very much !

I'll try to find something in 24 bits, would be fun if that works!

No way, not yet, not with Engine#3 !

[GerardA]

Haha,
24/192 plays. I can even recognize what song is playing!
It sounds like a cat in the dishwasher...

[PeterSt]

So now you need some more bits, right ?
That won't be in the upcoming version (I hope today), but the next.

[GerardA]

That's quick!

Do note that I think you have to try with 24 bit material, because only then Engine#3 will try to make a legal connection to your soundcard which can only do 24 bits (or ?).

I don't know how but the soundcard plays 16 bits too. You're the expert here! Does the souncard make 24 out of 16 or is vista doing this or??

[PeterSt]

The sequence is Vista -> Soundcard.

So if the soundcard tells it's outputting in 16 bits it can do it.
If the software outputs 24 bits, it might be Vista making 16 of it, but the soundcard may do that just the same.

I don't know more about the Terratec than this thread tells about it.

[WeHa]

has the latest XXHighEnd solved the problem? thanks.

[GerardA]

Well, for me it has!

[WeHa]

i've tried it. the error message has gone, but there is no sound there. what DAC setting should i use? thanks for the help.